Some ideas on water and crafting progression

[njs]

Note to moderators: I would like to request that my thread not be merged with any of the megathreads regarding A21, as I do not wish to deal with notifications from them. However, if this thread becomes off-topic or otherwise needs to be locked then y'all are more than welcome to do what your job requires.

Just trying to toss my hat into the ring and give some honest feedback and suggestions on how current systems for water and crafting magazines can be adjusted, and why I think they need to be. These ideas may have already been thrown out before - if they have, feel free to link them, I'd appreciate reading what people said about them. I will also preface by saying I have not played a great deal of A21, but I have read a bit about what the devs have been saying about why they made the changes they made.

For water: filters being left to mostly being from traders or a lucky loot find is not enjoyable for the early game (as a side note, I believe they should be craftable, even if locked behind tech requirements). Early game, I want to be focused on establishing a base and not really tie myself to a trader or quests. I also do not want to have to sift through POIs to try to find particular loot containers already. So I do believe jars should be returned to the game as a way of collecting water - they allow for crafting and exploration playstyles to be more viable as ways to access clean water. But I can definitely appreciate the desire to make collecting water a more pressing survival issue that needs more planning. To preserve that but to also open up additional methods of creating reliable sources of water, There are two potential ideas I have:

1) Require fires be started with... fire starters. These can be items that are crafted or looted, and can require some more intermediate resources that aren't as widely available as stone and wood - maybe scrap iron, cloth, or some additional resource. Make this as game-y as need be. The point is that it forces some greater forethought into gathering water - you won't be able to just make a quick pit stop, plop a campfire down, and boil all your jars. However, this would not necessarily do enough, as it only addresses the issue with how easily one can begin the process of boiling water, not necessarily the ease at which one can satiate their thirst after getting the necessary resources. So my second idea would be:

2) Make the crafting process for potable water less easy. I like the idea dew collectors use with providing water over time, as this then makes planning more important for supplying oneself with water. So I think it'd be cool to create a need to filter sediment from murky water before needing to boil it. You could craft some sort of filter with charcoal, plastics, and cloth - or whatever would make sense between balance and intuition. Murky water can then be added to the sediment filter and, over time, provide filtered water. The process would differ from that of the dew collector as it would only provide water that is free of sediment, but not bacteria: in terms of gameplay impact, this could be water that perhaps does not lower player health, but does not provide as much hydration as clean water, NOR can it be used in crafting recipes required by clean water. Thus, the dew collector would be a superior method of gathering water in (at least, not counting time) two ways: it working passively, and it skipping the need to use fire for further processing the water. This preserves the need to plan out water rations while also allowing for some alternative methods of gathering water - ones that do not force a player to focus on trader quests in order to establish a reliable water source.

For crafting magazines: my main gripe is the randomness in progression created by having a bunch of different magazines for a bunch of different tech trees scattered about as loot. I think moving the tech tree away from the skill tree was a good move, as it makes it viable for players to specialize in different combat and exploration playstyles without hindering their progress in the tech tree, but relegating all progress to magazines just makes progress feel aimless. So, I have two separate ideas for changing this system to give players more agency in progressing - for both changes, magazines could exist as ways to supplement these methods for advancing in tech, or providing unique specialized recipes:

1) Create a literal tech tree that players can spend points in when levelling up alongside their skills. This is a pretty simple change, I don't think it needs much explaining. It can be anything from bringing back the skills from pre-A21 and putting them in their own tech tree page or be a point-allocating system similar to A21 where you level up different crafting categories to improve crafting and eventually unlock new tech.

2) Add some sort of research bench that allow players to burn through some resources to eventually gain the knowledge for different work stations and crafting items. This idea emphasizes crafting more than exploration and questing in some regards, but I think you can tie in the latter playstyles into it in some ways: maybe creating some sort of "research blueprint" item that players need to loot or be rewarded with to be able to learn crafting recipes beyond simple processes, for instance. They could even be tiered based on the difficulty of a POI or quest.

To conclude: I think 7D2D has largely grown in a good direction, contrary to what many people who have expressed discontent with these recent changes may claim. I come from a place of understanding and empathy towards the dev team: I think they're putting in honest work into the game, and I recognize that rebalancing systems is simply a part of the development process. I do, however, think A21 has taken some of the enjoyment I've found in 7D2D away for me. This isn't entirely avoidable in the process of making an Early Access game - some players will simply prefer older versions. I do think the vision the devs have for the game, from my understanding of it, is one I think will be good for the game eventually. However, A21 is a rocky step forward in my view. Hopefully the general ideas I've thrown out align with what the devs are trying to go for, and hopefully the devs find ways to better articulate their vision.

[Mithrandir]

IMO, you have interesting ideas, some I like some I don't. My problem is those 2 topics have been discussed in details between players and I don't feel like repeating the many comments I've made on them on each of their own mega threads. Maybe you should post your ideas on TFP's forum if you don't want to be lost in a mega thread.

Anyway, I commend you for your general positive attitude.

[njs]

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

IMO, you have interesting ideas, some I like some I don't. My problem is those 2 topics have been discussed in details between players and I don't feel like repeating the many comments I've made on them on each of their own mega threads. Maybe you should post your ideas on TFP's forum if you don't want to be lost in a mega thread.

Anyway, I commend you for your general positive attitude.

I may end up making an account to post this on TFP's forum at some point, depending if this discussion goes anywhere and if I feel strongly enough about this lol.

I certainly appreciate that this discussion has been dragged to ♥♥♥♥ at this point and that I'm late to the game. Mostly I just wanted to get this out of my head. That being said if you do have any specific thoughts on what I wrote I'd be happy to read them.

[SylenThunder]

Originally posted by njs:

I may end up making an account to post this on TFP's forum at some point, depending if this discussion goes anywhere and if I feel strongly enough about this lol.

If you want TFP to see it, you should absolutely do that. I will note however, that the game is getting pretty close to feature-complete, and they aren't likely to be taking many suggestions for changes.

[njs]

Originally posted by SylenThunder:

Originally posted by njs:

I may end up making an account to post this on TFP's forum at some point, depending if this discussion goes anywhere and if I feel strongly enough about this lol.

If you want TFP to see it, you should absolutely do that. I will note however, that the game is getting pretty close to feature-complete, and they aren't likely to be taking many suggestions for changes.

Yeah, figured as much. Another reason I didn't bother trying to give this much more visibility tbh lol.

[Darren]

I think its kinda sad that you have to note the moderators not to merge your Thread with megathreads. This happened also to a really good one i think yesterday. it was about progression but was merged to one about magazines and what about people thinkin about them, it was obviosly not the same topic.

To your topic:

- I think research-Tables wouldnt fit this Game. I would be arguing against such a feature, it makes it even more "gamey".

- I Disagrre in General that the Game goes in a good direction, but i think it really depends on what Kind of Games you like. I wished it would go more in a Survival Themed direction Again.

- Water should be hard at the beginning, but portable water should be also easier in mid-Game.

- Tech Tree would be a solution to that Random Progress-Magazine Mess.

So i partly agree on some solutions (They are really good so far) to some issues we have got with the latest Changes, but ich think thats just treating symptoms and not the core problems, but - i have to say here once again, that it seems we prefer completely different game-Styles/Designs.

[njs]

Originally posted by Darren:

I think its kinda sad that you have to note the moderators not to merge your Thread with megathreads. This happened also to a really good one i think yesterday. it was about progression but was merged to one about magazines and what about people thinkin about them, it was obviosly not the same topic.

To your topic:

- I think research-Tables wouldnt fit this Game. I would be arguing against such a feature, it makes it even more "gamey".

- I Disagrre in General that the Game goes in a good direction, but i think it really depends on what Kind of Games you like. I wished it would go more in a Survival Themed direction Again.

- Water should be hard at the beginning, but portable water should be also easier in mid-Game.

- Tech Tree would be a solution to that Random Progress-Magazine Mess.

So i partly agree on some solutions (They are really good so far) to some issues we have got with the latest Changes, but ich think thats just treating symptoms and not the core problems, but - i have to say here once again, that it seems we prefer completely different game-Styles/Designs.

Appreciate the reply. Yeah these are fair points. Research bench suggestion was me trying to find a way to preserve what I think the devs are trying to do with crafting magazines, which is creating a less linear progression that incorporates looting, trading, and questing. I do think a nonlinear tech tree unlocked via levelling up can still maintain that spirit, though.

Honestly after hearing that the game is approaching a finished state after how A21 came out I'm finding myself to be less optimistic about being able to enjoy the finished product. I understand that, with how many reworks the game has gone through for some of these systems, it's important to lock in on something to be able to move forward with other content that builds on it etc., I guess I'm just disappointed about where they landed.

Well, I can be content with just having access to previous builds. Really I'm just coming back to this game while I wait for PZ's next build, so I don't have much of a stake in this discussion besides the brief personal exercise in balancing problem-solving (really, most people don't lol it is just a game after all).

[Darren]

Yep. I wish they had stuck to the previous version to move forward. Because I completely agree with you, the neverending reworks have to come to an end and a decision has to be made, you can see very well where this constant revision leads.

I still think your solutions are well thought out if you take this version and its problems as a basis, much better than some of the other ones from veterans who enjoy them lol

(Sorry, used google translator cause i'm a bit lazy today lol)