Endgame?

[f00bar]

I'm really loving 7D2D, and all the new updates. But what's really missing is some sign that there's an 'endgame' in the works - or even just a 'second act.' (If there's any discussion of this from TFP, I haven't found it - by all means, point me to it if you can.)

I've started probably a dozen worlds in 7D2D, starting with the old fixed map and up through a bunch of random ones. Each time, I have a ball for about 2-3 in-game weeks. That's enough time to get a nicely-fortified base, acquire most of the gear you really need, set up mining, farming and forging, and even explore a city.

Then what??

7D2D is a terrific game for that first couple of weeks, but it needs to go somewhere after that. It needs NPC survivors to rescue, or missions and quests, or new levels of crafting to unlock, or new types of environments to discover.

Just as an example, here's my own suggestion: have strongholds of NPC survivors in a subway system under cities. You have to fight your way underground and liberate them - a tough challenge. Then you can either join them or set up trade with them. So you could be a manufacturer in the city, or a farmer in the country, for instance. Gradually, you can build a transport system. (Maybe the zombies step up their attacks at the same time, just to make things 'interesting.') Eventually, your goal is to expand your tech so you can build a radio and call for help. When you succeed, the choppers come in and... well, you can go on from there. Maybe you're rescued, and you wait for TFP to release the sequel, 7D2D2. Or maybe the game shifts to whole other level, with a military faction helping, or attacking. Lots of possibilities.

The point is, there need to be higher-level goals. Building a secure base keeps you very busy at first, but this game really wants to go further. More and more weapons, better graphics - all this is great. But what about completing the story arc? That's way more important, and neglecting it has been the downfall of many Early Access projects.

[Rowdy Ronny]

Don't let the amazing playability fool you. They are still building basic components of the game and quests and NPC's and probably other cool stuff will follow.

[Prophet]

I always thought that rebuilding a city would be a great end game. With Co-op play this would be quite fun I reckon.

It is impossible at the moment, not because of the endless spawning, but because we can not salvage or create enough block types to make anything look half decent.

The other reason this is not possible at the moment is because of the server wipes at each release. But in the future I can imagine servers which have been running for months and months with some very cool player built facilities.

This would all be done in an 'island' in a huge wasteland with the end goal being to build a transport system across the wasteland to other islands of civilization.

[Stiuck007]

OOh how about an Electro magnetic railway (monorail).

[Vizor513]

There will be NPC'S and survivor settlements with quests implemented later on. Also confirmed are wasteland bosses. Bandits raiding ur built base and also survivor npc settlements needing rescue from said bandits. More varaints of animals including zombie versions ( zombie bears oh my!) Cars and other vehicles. Electricity to power the higher level bases with turrets and traps.

They have alot planned and if u did any kind of digging online u would find readily available information. heres a place i visit daily for updated info.
http://joelhuenink.tumblr.com/
It seems like u are very intrested in what the future of the game holds so i would suggest posting on the official forums at https://7daystodie.com/forums/forum.php
Alot of ideas you have suggested are hot topics among most of the posters there and throwing in ur 2 cents would def be worth it.

I can only imagine the possibilities when the game is released and they have steam workshop added. The sky is the limit ( and beyond! 7 days in space mod!)

[Jᴧgᴧ]

NPCs + Quests + Skill system + Expanded loot + Expanded hunting creatures + Expanded zombie types + Expanded cave system... etc etc etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about stuff to do later on in development.

[f00bar]

Thanks for the responses. I have been following Joel's blog, but most of his posts have been about better graphics, not long-term goals. I also searched the forums, but did not see anything specific to this topic. (I can't post in the forums because that requires linking my Steam account - something I'm just not going to do. Very bad idea, for many reasons - a bit rude of them to even suggest it.)

I am a bit concerned when I keep hearing that great stuff will be added "later on." The logical way to build a game (or anything else) is to construct the framework first, then flesh it out. Very rare that it makes sense to finish the bathroom, right down to the wallpaper and sticky ducks in the bathtub, before completing the foundation, studding the living room and bedroom, and putting a roof over the whole works.

I do like the idea of rebuilding the cities. That would be very cool. I also like bandits, cars, wasteland bosses... all that stuff. But when do we see it? The foundation of 7D2D is ready now - or it will be (again) after the Unity 5 update. The smart thing would be to pause the smaller updates and at least rough-in the larger structure, so EA players can be providing feedback on it while TFP goes on adding detail, adjusting weapon balance, tweaking performance and all that other important stuff.

It would be nice to see a proper roadmap update on all this from TFP.

[Jᴧgᴧ]

"Alpha" is the framework building time, and we're in that right now. Beta is still a long way off.

Check the 7DTD Kickstarter page if you want a very rough list of major features that will make it in. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/7daystodie/7-days-to-die-zombie-survival-game

[f00bar]

An alpha should be tending as rapidly as possible towards being 'feature complete.' And you definitely want to do the big, difficult, architectural stuff first. For obvious reasons - if you leave it until later it will probably break all that other stuff you've made in the meantime. So, move to Unity 5: sure. Adding new weapons, more crafting stuff, new zombie types: no.

Also, just how long is "a long way"? The Kickstarter was "successfully funded on August 15, 2013." So we're closing in on two years and still not even close to beta. That's dangerously slow for any kind of software project. It's so slow it runs a serious risk of falling below the critical threshold where it simply becomes unsustainable. This can happen if new technology, or closely-competing products, start arriving quicker than the game is getting built. (That's what killed Daikatana, for instance. There are many other examples.)

On top of that, we've seen lots of other EA projects get bogged down in endless minor updates. Those keep the fans happy, but they easily become a substitute for real progress. I think 7D2D has more potential than any other EA title I've tried - I'd hate to see it fail.

If I was TFP, I'd go ahead and finish the Unity 5 conversion, then immediately freeze all updates for as long as it takes to roll out an architecturally-complete build of the final game. After that, the pressure would be off, and the game could go on improving forever.

[Prophet]

Right now most of the player base is not playing 7dtd because most have done all they can with the current build.

One of the things we are saying is that maybe it would be a good idea to introduce some longer goals to keep people playing longer and reduce the 'When is the next update' threads.

[f00bar]

Prophet, I absolutely agree. With EA, communication is vital. TFP needs to draw a longer-term roadmap, and communicate it to its fans. Then take a break to do some of the major grunt work that will enable 7D2D to actually get finished.

[Prophet]

Also there is a modding community slowly growing (might join them myself) who could add free content which may or may not be added to the final game.
This could at the very least be a source of inspiration should the TFP get stuck on the End Game at all (Minecraft is strong mostly due to the modding community - not that I am comparing Minecraft to 7DTD)

But that will not grow until the roadmap is even partially realized.

[f00bar]

Again, Prophet, I agree completely.

I love modding, as long as developers don't rely on modders to do their job for them.

The Minecraft comparison is very relevant. It never did get a proper endgame, and is weaker than it could have been because of that. Minecraft is also the poster child for the problems of modding a moving target. The sooner TFP finishes the backbone of the game, including a modding API, the sooner the modders can really go nuts on it. If they wait too long, a lot of modders will give up. I think we're seeing that fatigue factor with Minecraft.

[Tricks]

Originally posted by f00bar:

So we're closing in on two years and still not even close to beta. That's dangerously slow for any kind of software project. It's so slow it runs a serious risk of falling below the critical threshold where it simply becomes unsustainable. This can happen if new technology, or closely-competing products, start arriving quicker than the game is getting built. (That's what killed Daikatana, for instance. There are many other examples.)

I don't really think that two years is too long for where the game is at now. There have been many games that could have been great had they not been rushed out the door too soon with bugs and lacking features.

And how are the features they're adding in A11 not important to the framework of the game? Because you personally aren't interested in them? There are a lot of players who are really looking forward to these new systems.

I'm not entirely sure what makes you more qualified than the developers of the game in deciding the development plan... are you some kind of professional consultant?

[Vizor513]

Originally posted by So Kawaii Mahou Shounen:

Originally posted by f00bar:

So we're closing in on two years and still not even close to beta. That's dangerously slow for any kind of software project. It's so slow it runs a serious risk of falling below the critical threshold where it simply becomes unsustainable. This can happen if new technology, or closely-competing products, start arriving quicker than the game is getting built. (That's what killed Daikatana, for instance. There are many other examples.)

I don't really think that two years is too long for where the game is at now. There have been many games that could have been great had they not been rushed out the door too soon with bugs and lacking features.

And how are the features they're adding in A11 not important to the framework of the game? Because you personally aren't interested in them? There are a lot of players who are really looking forward to these new systems.

I'm not entirely sure what makes you more qualified than the developers of the game in deciding the development plan... are you some kind of professional consultant?

This guy/girl already has a roadmap in his/her head of what the pimps should do and now that they are not following it, he/she is worried it will fail. Im not worried whatsoever about them finishing the game. They have sold almost 1 mill in copies so they are fine money wise. Im sure they have an internal roadmap they are following and who is to say joel cannot work on new zombies and stuff while waiting on other departments to finish what they are working on with unity 5. Better than him sitting there twiddiling his thumbs waiting for everyone else to get done. why not add weapons .

[f00bar]

So Kawaii - two years is a very long time even for a triple-A big-studio title to be in alpha. And bear in mind that TFP should have had a lot of preliminary work done even before they launched the Kickstarter.

Yes, rushing a game out too soon is bad. But taking too long can also be fatal - and has been, many times, on projects that had much more experienced developers than TFP.

As far as features, I've loved absolutely everything that TFP has added. The problem is that since the random-map update, it's all been incremental features, and not the big architectural steps that are needed to finish the game. Those steps need to happen sooner, not later. They should have come in the first year of alpha - and they're still not on the horizon.

As for what makes me qualified, yes, as it happens, I am "some kind of professional consultant." (You just never know, do you?) I've worked in and around software and gaming for a ridiculously long time, and seen a lot of projects succeed, and fail.

But I don't have to be some kind of expert to have a bit more perspective than TFP does, after they've been working 'in the trenches' for two years. And I don't have to be a genius to observe how many EA projects have relied on small, steady updates to keep people like you happy - right up to the moment they failed, or were abandoned. I don't want to see that happen to 7D2D.

Anyway, I'm just asking: what's the plan? You can ignore all my other observations or suggestions if you like, and TFP is obviously free to disagree with them as well.