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A 10 year old, DM'img a tabletop RPG back in the '80s, would have cringed over the Fun Pimps inability to understand simple game balance mechanics. Only an idiot would consider a "dragon" as a reasonable opponent for a low level D&D party. Yet the latest "improvements" to 7D2D include 2700-3400 hp "dire wolves" as spawns in a pre-day 7, Tier 1, clear quest, and in low game-stage zombie ninja dog wandering hordes.
Historically, there were two types of quests in 7D2D: fetch and kill. However, at inception, there were hints of how these basic systems could become an engaging game mechanic.
Without traders, starting a quest required a player to "find" a note outlining the premise of the quest and marking a location on the map. Although simplistic the two types of quests were logically consistent: a survivor, who was dying, made a map to their "hidden stash" or a report of a large concentration of zombies that needed to be removed.
Unlike Traitor Reckt, a player could empathize with the infected survivor and appreciate their final request / hope that the supplies would help someone else. Unlike the current "go into an illogically constructed death trap, filled with invisible / teleporting zombies, which you are forced to fight in a linear maze that limits your options for intelligent play", both of the original quest versions took place outdoors. A player could carefully scout the area, clear out extra wandering zombies and even pick a combat strategy based on their playstyle - including using structures and traps. A "stealth build" still found itself at a slight handicap on "clear the mini-horde" quests, but had a slight advantage on buried treasures.
Both types of simple quests had great potential for engaging the player. It is not hard to imagine new quest notes which directed a player to "signs of a new trader located at" or other POI's with specific features. "Medical supplies rumored to be the back room at the vet clinic", "Joe's Gas Station had a secret underground bunker out back", "Uncle Eddy had a gun safe in his bedroom closet." Every POI created for the game also created the opportunity for a new specific quest focused on that POI.
In other words, engaging in gameplay - combat with zombies and exploration - rewarded the player with "loot" that requires them to engage in gameplay. While the basic quest generation requires almost no creative thought, there is huge potential for "story telling" (once someone is added to "Team Pimps" who understands how to write stories): who was the survivor who wrote the note? What does it tell us about the Appocalypse? Or the world's factions? Is "Traitor" Joel really a "traitor" or did no one on the Fun Pimps team understand the simple concept of "malaprop"?
More complex questlines could be developed as a "string of pearls" - the first note taking the player to "Uncle Eddy's" where the gun safe is unlocked, but contains a minor weapon / ammo / gun magazines and another note, explaining "Uncle Eddy" went to check on "Aunt Matilda" on her farm. Aunt Matilda's farm gives some food items / cooking recipes and a new note. The process repeats until the player reaches "Traitor Joel's" compound or some other major gameplay milestone.
Trader "type" becomes much more meaningful. Early promises on trader mechanics included Players renting space at trader compounds, allowing nomadic playstyles, and requiring them to help defend the compound from zombie hordes. Random trader locations and even traveling traders (Fallout 4?, cough, cough) were teased.
Even with Trader "cheats" on (POI protected), players would still be required to use ammo and other resources. "Damage" to the compound could be simulated, either with a reset to a "post-attack" version of the POI or a simple book keeping mechanic based on number of zombies attacking the compound vs. kills by player. Player's ignoring the horde or killing few zombies would mean more damage. The trader would need the player to "repair" the compound before it could be used against the next horde (reset to default state). If the player does not / cannot fully repair the compound and it suffers another horde attack, the trader dies / moves to another (safer) location.
Random POI trader options adds a needed layer to the world. Imagine finding a "Pop-n-Pills" POI, with a "Trader Jen" sign in the window. Trader Bob's "car-lot". Trader Hugh's gun range. Reckt, in a frilly dress, is waiting tables at a local diner (or more likely spitting on your food, in the back).
If you did not limit your traders to the obvious Fun Pimp Avatars, you could add dozens of NPC's (just use the pre-gen player avatars) each with various specialties - which are logically reflected in their choice of locations. They could just stand there in modified "T-pose" just like the Fun Pimps' Avatars. Stupid trader dialogue could be (partially) re-used, with non-Fun Pimp Avatars only needing a simple greeting ("what are you looking for, today"), a "thanks for shopping", a "come back after you finish the job and I will give you a reward", and "good job on that, here is your reward."
This was the game so many of us believed in and supported all those years ago. Is it any wonder we mourn the fact it died in early access and was replaced by this looter-shooter / walmart shopping simulator?
I understand that. I have been here for some 12+ years. This post was for the community. Presenting a historical perspective that many may not have been around for and who do not understand why some of us "old-timers" feel the game (as released as no longer "alpha") is far less fun and immersive than previous versions.
There are also those who monitor these discussions and have the "ear" of the Fun Pimps. Potentially some of my suggestions of how quests could be more than simplistic "fetch / kill" might catch their eye and end up on the "official" radar.
P.S. Thanks for the complement. I consider Mr. King to be an excellent story teller.
No, I don't think so.
I was here before "quests" were introduced to the game and I recall the absolute mess that "quests" were when they were first implemented in the game. They're better now. Not great, but better.
Look, I recall that some of the earliest missions had you go to a bouncing exclamation point then activate it like we do now but then all you would have to do is kill the zombies that spawned all around you from thin air. The football zombie mission is the one I remember best - go to the football field, kill X football zombies, try not to die. That was it.
That's certainly not the extremely rudimentary system that we have now and even though what we've got now is basically limited to fetch quest, kill quest, fetch and kill quest, dig up the junk quest, and turn on the thing at night quest it's far better than what it used to be.
If they want their input heard, maybe check out the dev studio's own site and post these fascinating discussions there.
Yes, I remember those also (my least favorite was killing rabbits / chickens : ) But my point was that for that stage of the game / zombie AI, it showed promise. But after all these years we still go to a bouncing yellow exclamation point, or to a POI that has been specifically crafted to have ninja zombies in locations they could never actually reach, and still they spawn all around you from thin air : ) They have simply moved from the football field into the school / locker room / basketball court.
But all the things I listed were quest options that were actually discussed (not just by players - the various options for traders were part of the "official" meta. And it all sounded great. So the question is why were all these great ideas never actually implemented (except in mods?)
Yes I do. As noted previously. I know the Pimps have their own forum where fans can tell them how great they are. But for over a decade, this forum has been where general players could come for information, etc. that was from a more unbiased perspective. There were even some players who made it their job to take info from the Pimps forum and post it here.
And some players who were active on both forums could raise interesting discussion points back on the Pimps official forum.
My target audience is those players who have never known anything except the minimalist "trader quest" game loop.
I wouldn't say that the old mission system showed promise. It was about as rudimentary, basic, and bottom of the barrel as it could be.
I know you're talking about things that were discussed but not implemented and that's exactly why you can't say that the "quests" and "quest systems" are worse. You're basing your claim a lot on things that never existed...
They have simply moved from the football field? Don't fully agree with that but... sort of? Yeah, sort of.
Look, I'm not a fan of the gotcha zeds. I hate the way "quests" work nor how basic they are, and the fact that they magically re-set entire POIs is just dumb. I don't like how everything is linear including trader mission progression and even the "intended path" through POIs that will make sure you trigger all the zombies properly. It's bad, but it's still miles ahead of what we had back when quests were first implemented so again if you are still trying to say "tldr: quest implementation has gotten worse over the last decade" I have to disagree with that because it hasn't.
I don't see any problem with the POI's jump scare carnival ride aspect. I guess you've never seen any really old zombie movies. Lots of jump scares. The original version of day of the dead has guys down in the basement of an apartment building and a whole WALL collapses outwards revealing dead bodies stacked up like cordwood. The bodies spill out like a tidal wave. People were refusing to turn over the dead bodies, and storing them there. Of course, they've all reanimated as zombies. Fun times.
In land of the dead, guys are looting a convenience store. One guy stops in front a beer coolor, and squints through the dirty grimey glass. What he's squinting at is a zombie, and it crashes through the beer cooler glass door. Again fun times. At the end of that scene after they kill that zombie, a guy knocks something over the counter. So he hops up on the counter, and leans over it to reach. There's a zombie hiding under the counter (live human probably hid there after they were bitten, turned and just stayed there). It grabs the guys arm and bites him.
Things popping out of the woodwork is zombie movie 101. The current POI's are actually more loyal to the base material then the original version of the game was.
Meaning things like : action FPS, character progression, balanced progression paths, end game challenge and such are indeed getting better. But definitely not realism that's for sure.
It may not be where you wanted it to go, but they're not getting worse, they're just going further in a direction you may dislike and it happens that I mostly like it.
So, quests are slowly getting a bit better as Macdallan said. Btw, there'll be some new quests based on the road map, including a story mode. Just don't expect this to ever be a quest or story driven game. I see quests here as just an optional mechanic to reward players that experience the many POI challenges as they were designed, while letting anyone bypass them if they want.
But as I often say : not trying to change your opinion. Just giving mine since you say you know you post here just to talk to other players and not the devs.
Okay, I can understand that. My "tldr" is probably not real accurate portrayal on my feeling of missed opportunities. I know there were some modders, back then, who did manage to get some good mileage out of the quest system (don't know if you recall some of Valmar's early work : )
Actually I have seen my share of zombie movies - back in the dark ages I was a projectionist at a small drive-in movie theatre during high school. My issue is that "movies" are very different forms of media. Hollywood quickly figured out that "jump scares" sold tickets. Take a half dressed female, who just had sex with her boyfriend, and decided to wander down a dark hall, where the audience would suddenly experience a jump scare, and you were golden. Teenage boys would bring their dates to theatres, knowing the biological reaction to a jumpscare was conducive to a "good time" later.
A computer game, however, is a first person perspective. Forcing the player into the role of the dumb blonde female who stupidly goes into an area filled with danger, just so you can use the same "empty room filled with zombies" trick . . . creates quite a different experience.
It is like the every POI should have at least 3 (or more) unavoidable traps (unless you have done the POI before, many times) mindset for POI creation. It is pretty funny when you watch it happen in a movie. But go to your local Vet rehab center and ask some of them how it feels in first person / real life.