7DTD is no longer a survival game

[JoeSloeMoe]

I dont follow the experimental version that much at all and had heard a bit about the drinking water changes. So this week I got to get more of a feel for the changes. It seems that now I cant boil water for drinking, the simplest of tasks. Instead I'm expected to get a job and buy my water from a trader.

It seems that 7DTD has moved from a survival game to a weird twisted dystopian future where I have to get a job to survive. Not just any job though, the jobs have no benefits, no pension, time off. I get to do some kind of reverse DoorDash errands, and my food comes out a vending machine from some production line somewhere. Maybe the zombies arent actual zombies, they are just workers gone crazy having to work the vending machine production lines - we just think they are zombies because we got hit in the head.

I heard a rumour that they might have some kind of debt that you owe some dude as a kind of end game scenario. The last thing I need after surviving 70 days working my ParcelDash Gig (without paid time-off!) is some twisted twilight zone version of a tax man coming after me for a cut of my hard eared money.

Its taken so long to develop the game that the dev have become boomers. Am not keen on this boomer 'get a job' to survive direction the game is taking.
/♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[autumndragonfalling]

Seems like people are getting pretty worked up arguing about whether the murky water glass is half full or half empty before it's even on the table.

[Roland]

I don’t see it as such a leap as you do. There is no bending over backwards here. Im not evangelizing it because there are other containers in the game that are abstracted. Im evangelizing it because I’ve played with it and know the value of it. Im doing the same thing anyone would do after riding a really fun rollercoaster. Im extolling it’s virtues in the excitement of having experienced it.

All you have is doubts and fears and you want to only discuss this with other people who have doubts and fears so you can all confirm your doubts and fears together.

This game is not a survival sim and was never meant to be. If anything, that is the justification for them being able to pick and choose what they want to render in detail and what they want to render in abstracted form.

Im not using gas cans and stew bowls to justify the water change. Im using it to show that most people aren’t bothered by a design that abstracts the empty containers and that most people won’t be bothered by the loss of empty jars once they adapt to the change. It will be just like all the other glossed over parts of the game—justifiable purely because this isn’t meant to be a survival simulator.

A21 is a fun rollercoaster. That’s what Im evangelizing. I’ve ridden it and it is awesome. Next month everyone will get to try it out and decide for themselves.

[Dewguru]

Originally posted by Roland:

This game is not a survival sim and was never meant to be. If anything, that is the justification for them being able to pick and choose what they want to render in detail and what they want to render in abstracted form.

The store page mentions Survival or Survive multiple times. How is it not a survival sim?

Sim doesn't mean micromanaging tedium. It simply means simulation. The degree with how detailed it gets is based on the game design.

A game that has you managing elements such as health, stamina, hunger, and thirst in order to survive - is a survival sim.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by Dewguru:

Originally posted by Roland:

This game is not a survival sim and was never meant to be. If anything, that is the justification for them being able to pick and choose what they want to render in detail and what they want to render in abstracted form.

The store page mentions Survival or Survive multiple times. How is it not a survival sim?

Sim doesn't mean micromanaging tedium. It simply means simulation. The degree with how detailed it gets is based on the game design.

A game that has you managing elements such as health, stamina, hunger, and thirst in order to survive - is a survival sim.

No, it's not. A sruvival sim needs to be realistic, while a game with survival elements just needs to "entertain" you with some kind of survival likeness.

I mean... by your comment it doesn't even seem like you've been playing the game at all.
7D2D is a survival sim?? Really??

[Dewguru]

Originally posted by ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

No, it's not. A sruvival sim needs to be realistic, while a game with survival elements just needs to "entertain" you with some kind of survival likeness.

I mean... by your comment it doesn't even seem like you've been playing the game at all.
7D2D is a survival sim?? Really?? :staredown:

A sim does not need to be realistic to the point of minutiae. A sim CAN be that realistic.

I'm not saying the game is at the level of say Microsoft's Flight Simulator, but it does simulate survival. I'm hungry, if I don't eat I die. If I eat uncooked food, I risk disease.

[MoistGamer]

My only targeted complaint ever about survival in this game is the "you are wet" umbrella that pops up. Gotta do something with that. And they will. But it does nothing and it has been mocking my existence for at least five years.

Maybe you're waterlogged so you're slower when wet. Swing speed, run speed, whatever. Just make it do something. Arrrrghhhhhhhh #&%$#$*@$*@)#%(&@#%(&*

: ) written half in jest, its not a big deal and never has been. But make that effing icon do something mang!

Aside from that my general angst about survival is not that its too vague nor too micro-task intensive... its that the survival aspects only last for a few days, max.

Water change is addressing that and apparently it can go for weeks now until you have a steady supply. This, I like.

[Roland]

As you say, a sim is more detailed oriented and can but may not include all the minutiae of a particular task that is being simulated. People who enjoy sims typically want as much detail as they can get.

The front page does mention survival several times and this is a survival game much like MarioKart or Fzero are racing games but not racing sims.

Since this survival game is not a sim, the devs have creative license to represent survival however they wish for the purpose of entertainment.

They did a good job of making A21 fun in my opinion.

[Yadansha]

When I got this game like years ago. I was happy to see this was like surviving game. But now it's something else. How you get so much guns and ammo in dead world? How you can build your own AK-47 just from iron ore :D Even gunsmith can't do it.. and not in the dead world. How bear can take 20 arrows to head and still run, How Z can come through steel walls and so on.. this is going down every year

[Tahnval]

Originally posted by Roland:

[..] Im not using gas cans and stew bowls to justify the water change. Im using it to show that most people aren’t bothered by a design that abstracts the empty containers and that most people won’t be bothered by the loss of empty jars once they adapt to the change. [..]

Of course people who continue to play vanilla will adapt to the change. You've killed a strawman there.

Some other people will use mods or creative mode to work around the problem. But they'll still show in player numbers so people will be able to use them to say the change is a good thing.

Some other people will start playing in A21 (or another future alpha). Some of them will just accept the bad implementation of drinking water as part of the game and work with it. Some will talk about it on forums and get dismissed (politely or otherwise). Some will either stop playing because of it or work around it with a mod or creative mode.

None of that changes the fact that the new system is a crude, gratingly obvious example of bad storytelling. The devs decided on a goal (artificially imposed water scarcity) and imposed it on players in the simplest, most nonsensical way possible. It's ridiculous deus ex machina. It's sloppy craftsmanship. That's what some people are objecting to. Not the imposed water scarcity. Not the loss of empty jars. Not being more tethered to a base because a base is the only place to get drinkable water. Saying that people will get used to the loss of empty jars is a rebuttal to a different argument. The issue for many people isn't the goal (artificially imposed water scarcity) but the chosen method of reaching that goal being nonsensical.

[Tahnval]

Originally posted by Dewguru:

Originally posted by Roland:

This game is not a survival sim and was never meant to be. If anything, that is the justification for them being able to pick and choose what they want to render in detail and what they want to render in abstracted form.

The store page mentions Survival or Survive multiple times. How is it not a survival sim? [..]

Because it's a survival game. Well, it's partly a survival game. It's partly other types of game too. But the point here is the difference between a game and a simulator. There is a spectrum so there is area in the middle where something could be called either a game or a simulator, but 7DTD isn't in that part. It's most definitely a game, well towards the game end of the spectrum.

Top Gear magazine did an article a while back about a popular racing simulator. The magazine approached a winning racer in the simulator and offered them the chance to do it for real. That person had never raced any car on any track in reality. They'd never been to the chosen track in reality. They'd never driven the chosen racing car in reality. Or any other racing car. Right off the bat they were less than 4% slower than a real racing driver with real world experience would be in the same car. That's right up towards the simulator end of the spectrum - good enough to train someone to do it for real.

[Roland]

Younare exactly like the guy up above who objects to the game having zombies that can tear through concrete walls. You’ve picked your objectionable material and called it ludicrous. Someone else might think it’s ludicrous that there aren’t more corpses lying around. Someone else might think the game is ridiculous because we can craft things from our rudimentary craft stations. Someone else may think the whole blood moon is a crazy addition. Everyone has their thing that bugs them because they would prefer that aspect of the game to be more realistic and more towards the sim end of the spectrum rather than the arcade game end of the spectrum.

And that’s fine. You guys will each have to decide if it is too much to be able to enjoy the game. Meanwhile there are thousands who don’t even register these kinds of complaints in their conscious mind. They are having fun with the game that has been designed and for them that is enough. It’s fun.

A21 is fun.

[Paras]

Question: what is a Survival game for you?

For me it is SURVIVING against the odds of the game.
With PvP enabled it most of the time is not anymore because that it becomes the opposite: a Deathmatch because all you do is to the purpose to kill other players - kill or be killed... that got as much survival than a CoD game and I doubt somebody would call that a survival.
In any Survival it is the same about that.
In 7D2D you can play alone and PvE what still gives you the oppertunity to have the Survival.
The main part here is to survive against zombies and not hunger, thirst or whatever.
I mean there is quests but I not actually get what you mean about job and working for stuff.

You can say alot against 7D2D and I also did several times what got me banned here at least twice and others as well since criticism is not tolerated, so be carefull about that, but you cannot blame 7D2D to be not a survival.
Sure... it leaves alot of potential behind and its development is just... horrible since it isn't going forward but most of the time even backwards and drops alot of positive features or in its worst time even became unplayable ... it just walks in circles and grinds of the game more than it builds on I think. Might get me banned again saying all that, but I don't care.
I just recommend playing older versions (right click at the game in the library -> Settings -> Beta).
You will need to play alone but if I have a look in the multiplayer tab I think there is not much going on there anyways so it makes not much difference. In singleplayer you can set up the game as much as possible to your satisfaction. Sometimes there is even mods to help.

In the end the main part will stay the same. Fight zombies and work ur butt off to get to the 7th day to fight in the annoying bloodmoon-event again and again.
In multiplayer you can avoid that by just leaving before and maybe ur lucky and somebody else grinds through and you're fine if you come back later.
In singleplayer or if you host a server there is commands that allow you to just skip it. Not sure if you can somehow disable bloodmoon. Beside that it is all about looting and grinding ressources and gear. I mean I agree... it is pretty pointless with no or only minor rewards but even punishment (repairs, costs...) especially since the game leaves alot of potential behind or even drops it off, but yeah... still a survival. Could be alot better, but loot, craft, build - don't die. Survival.

[Mithrandir]

So, the big thing is now to argue if 7dtd is a survival sim or a game with some survival features, right ? Some of us have way too much time to lose IMO.

As Roland says, the only real issue for any game should be : do you have fun playing it or not.

Play games you like, stop wasting time on semantic or games you dislike or no longer like.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by Paras:

You can say alot against 7D2D and I also did several times what got me banned here at least twice and others as well since criticism is not tolerated, so be carefull about that, but you cannot blame 7D2D to be not a survival.
Sure... it leaves alot of potential behind and its development is just... horrible since it isn't going forward but most of the time even backwards and drops alot of positive features or in its worst time even became unplayable ... it just walks in circles and grinds of the game more than it builds on I think. Might get me banned again saying all that, but I don't care.
I just recommend playing older versions (right click at the game in the library -> Settings -> Beta).

Again with this delusions of persecution.

If you were banned is most probably not because you criticized the game, but because of violated the forum rules several times while expressing your opinion.

Did you know, for example, that discussing moderation actions is against the rules? (clue)

[Midas]

Originally posted by Roland:

Originally posted by Midas:

"You can't use empty containers to gather and store water, but here is this crafting station that will do it instead" Is pretty much literally 'forcing people into their vision'. It's not a question of what's fun, it's about what's believable, and what makes sense to a player, and not having normal drinking containers that you can refill is neither of those things.

Not only do I know that people will come to believe it but I know you will to. How I know is that you have never ever in your entire time of playing this game made a post complaining about the unbelievability of not having empty gasoline canisters and refilling them rather than having them disappear when you use the gas. You've never fretted about the bowls your stew fills and why you can't have a stack of empty bowls in your inventory to take to the stew pot and refill. You've never stopped to consider why you have no acid container lying about that you could pick up and take to refill.

Your mind seamlessly incorporated the abstract idea of these containers into the gameplay. Did I think about the lack of empty jars the first few times playing? Absolutely. Do I think about at all now? Not for about 8 months now. It is just simply a non-issue and doesn't even intrude upon my consciousness any more than all the missing candy wrappers that should be in my inventory after eating candy.

Originally posted by Midas:

All it will actually accomplish is leashing players to their base because they have to go back to drink if they can't take the water with them. Hmm if only they had something they could put this water in?

This shows that you still have no full comprehension of how the system works-- which is understandable since you haven't played with it yet. I don't know how carefully you read the description in the dev diary or whether you just got your information from some secondary source and they got it wrong.

You harvest jars of water from the dew collector so you can carry all the water you please wherever you go. You are no more leashed to your base than you have ever been before. When you drink the water you no longer get an empty jar back. it is consumed just like the bowls, gas cans, candy wrappers, etc that have never bothered you in the past. In your inventory they appear as jars of water just like in your inventory there are cans of gas. When you use them they disappear so there is no empty container to refill. That is it. You can still take all the water or specialty drinks that you craft with you wherever you go.

Soon after playing you won't even think about the empty jars except occasionally when opening cupboards and the loot is better than you remember it being without the empty jars cluttering up the loot tables....

Or it's because Undead Legacy, one of the most popular overhaul mods, DOES put a lot of these containers in the game, because it IS stupid that they don't exist.

And it has an actually sensible, intuitive and immersive way to make the water more scarce. Huh. It's almost like there's better ways to handle this change.