xp gain imbalances in coop

[KromeHWI]

if you are playing solo this is not as much an issue, but in coop, certain playstyles gain significantly more xp than others, despite all being supposedly valid and equal contributors for the survival of the group. this should not be the case, and it leaves a bad taste of unfairness and underappreciation in the mouth when you are playing as much time as your friends and yet they are leveling faster than you.

the simplest and easiest solution would be to just share ALL xp gain within the group as long as people are within the xp sharing distance range set in the server. honestly its a little dumb that this is not already the case. after all, the point is, if you are playing coop you are all in this together, you are all a team, and thus you should all be benefiting equally from the contributions of the group as a whole.

but as it is only xp from zombie kills is shared (which seems an arbitrary distinction and limitation). so if this is going to stay the case, than at least that means that xp gained from various activities needs to be better balanced and some things that do not currently gain xp should gain xp to make up for it. for the rest of this i will use my own standard party dynamic of hundreds of hours of games with a buddy of mine over years of playing this game.

we have very different playstyles (which is encouraged in this kind of game). he is primarily a builder/miner/crafter, whereas i am a sneaky ninja/looter/scavenger/farmer/cook and mission runner. i contribute at least half of what we need to survive: we would all have died from hunger a thousand times over where it not for me; we wouldnt have most of the gear we have; or nearly any of the dukes we have; not to mention finding certain rare items in the world that can not be crafted, which, in turn unlock whole new levels of crafting technology (items like mechanical parts, crucibles, beakers, acid, tires, batteries... i could go on but you get the drift). not to underplay my friends contributions, but he rarely leaves the base area, and mostly just digs holes and builds our horde/crafting bases, which is fine. that is what he loves to do, and i do what i love to do.

the point being both of our work is essential for our survival as a team, and yet, on our current game we are only around gamestage 50ish, i have more than 5 times the zombie kills and have run all of our missions so far (20ish), and yet he is already almost 9 levels ahead of me?!? in previous games that gap only widens the longer the game goes on, so that at the end of previous runs he has often been as much as 20-30 levels ahead of me! this is ridiculous and unfair. it is grossly unbalanced compensation for equal contribution. and for the record my friend completely agrees with me on this, so its not just me complaining.

as i said the easiest solution is to just share all xp, but lets look as some things that should gain xp that dont, and could help to balance things for the many different playstyles this game encourages.

you could/should gain xp from:
-opening unsearched loot containers (with bonus xp for "special loot containers" ie the ones in the "loot room" of most pois)
-discovering pois for the first time
-uncovering new areas of the map (ie clearing the fog of war)
- successfully sneaking around zombies with perhaps even a small xp bump for when they give up looking for you if they do detect you (cause you successfully escaped them)
- in addition to the damage boost for stealth kills, an xp boost as well (cause its harder and more time consuming to do than just smashing them with a club)
- a small amount of xp for distance traveled outside of a base/bed area, ie exploring and traveling, which takes a HUGE amount of time and gives you NOTHING (all the while someone digging a hole is just raking in the xp).
- a bit of xp for planting crops

im sure there are many more things that could and should gain you xp that dont, and this would balance things better. but again, the easiest and simplest and smartest and fairest way would be to just share all xp gained within a party. ideally the best solution would be both approaches. equal gain for party xp, and xp for time consuming tasks that currently dont grant xp but are still important for gameplay and survival. this would benefit solo play too cause that way you keep gaining xp no matter what essential task you are doing... which makes sense because in a "survival" game, surviving = experience, and just by doing the things you do to survive you learn and get better at surviving.

[Mithrandir]

It's your opinion, but where do you get the : "certain playstyles gain significantly more xp than others, despite all being supposedly valid and equal contributors for the survival of the group" ?

IMO, someone going out to fight zeds in POIs or in the wasteland take a lot more risks than someone mining or staying at base to grow potatoes. Bottom line, no, not every tasks should be an equal contributor to the survival of the group in a survival situation. Some are doing more, risking more, depending on their talents and/or preferences. Everyone contribute, but not with the same risk.

In my view, more risk should equal more xp. It's called risk vs rewards.

So you should get more xp. But that's just me maybe.

I'll add, but it's based on experience and not on any knowledge of the exact mechanics, that I think builders get less xp in mid to late game and fighting will let you close the gap.

[SiEgE]

The only exp skew I've seen is the exp gain by builders. They receive alot of experience by digging, and then upgrading stuff.
Dealing with zombies is harder than building/digging, and adds a solid resource spending imprint, that is harder to restore unless you're lucky with trader rewards and loot, while builders "crap out" tons of resources and build whatever they want the way they want.

If you get a builder who is enjoying the "soul draining routine" part of building/digging(me) a bit too much, then you'll get someone who gets exp 24/7, non-stop, stockpiling resources and skillpoints.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

In my view, more risk should equal more xp. It's called risk vs rewards.

So you should get more xp. But that's just me maybe.

I'll add, but it's based on experience and not on any knowledge of the exact mechanics, that I think builders get less xp in mid to late game and fighting will let you close the gap.

it would be nice if this were true, but in my experience (almost 800 hours of gameplay over many years, most of which was with my friend in 2p coop and the division of labor as i described in my post) this has not been the case. all he has to do is keep building stuff (pet projects, tunnels connecting the bases etc) and he keeps on generating xp faster than i can possible keep up with despite vastly more risk on my part, way more kills, and vastly more missions (almost to orders of magnitude), to the tune of as i said, 20-30 levels higher than me in the later game.

and re: siege
yes maybe it is primarily the mining and building skew that im seeing here and the rest are more balanced to eachother, but still, there are a lot of time consuming and important things that are not being rewarded with xp, and this could help balance things. i dont want to take away xp that builders get, i just want to ALSO get a fair reward for all the work and time that i put into things.

[A Pebble]

Why does it matter so much?

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by A Pebble:

Why does it matter so much?

seems like a pretty obvious answer to me (and one that ive already gone into great detail explaining)... the simple answer is: because that is the game. gaining xp allows you to level up skills that improve your build and thus your enjoyment of the game. also, leveling up is most of the point of any RPG system in games. but beyond those simple reasons, its a deeper sense of getting compensation for your hard work. and the primary way in which this game compensates you for your work is via granting you xp, and as ive explained in great detail, it does not do this equally.

if this is not something that matters to you, thats great for you, but it doesnt help this discussion at all for those of us that it DOES matter to to just say, "why does this issue matter?" when i made it very clear why it does matter to me. this discussion is not about "does this matter?" it is supposing already that it DOES matter, and then, operating under that proposition, it is about how to fix the issue.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

In my view, more risk should equal more xp. It's called risk vs rewards.

So you should get more xp. But that's just me maybe.

I'll add, but it's based on experience and not on any knowledge of the exact mechanics, that I think builders get less xp in mid to late game and fighting will let you close the gap.

it would be nice if this were true, but in my experience (almost 800 hours of gameplay over many years, most of which was with my friend in 2p coop and the division of labor as i described in my post) this has not been the case. all he has to do is keep building stuff (pet projects, tunnels connecting the bases etc) and he keeps on generating xp faster than i can possible keep up with despite vastly more risk on my part, way more kills, and vastly more missions (almost to orders of magnitude), to the tune of as i said, 20-30 levels higher than me in the later game.

and re: siege
yes maybe it is primarily the mining and building skew that im seeing here and the rest are more balanced to eachother, but still, there are a lot of time consuming and important things that are not being rewarded with xp, and this could help balance things. i dont want to take away xp that builders get, i just want to ALSO get a fair reward for all the work and time that i put into things.

Then it must be that in my own coop games, we build a lot less after we have a good base near the mid end game...

I do think more risk should get more reward in any game, so I would balance it more for kills/POI/Missions if it was my decision to make.

[Uncle Al]

Something that may well help is to turn OFF shared exp, then increase the exp multiplier for the game if you feel you're both levelling too slowly.

If you have shared exp on and the distance maxed out then the stay at homes will always outlevel the explorers/zombie killers on the team, because the builders are getting all the same kill exp AND the exp they get for building and mining.

You're currently creating your own problem because killing exp is shared but mining and building exp is not.

I don't think there's an up to date version, sadly, but Roland (I think) used to have a mod out which removed exp gain completely - you just level up every day you don't die. That would be perfect for keeping a team's levels in sync, so it might be worth looking if someone's published another version.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

It's your opinion, but where do you get the : "certain playstyles gain significantly more xp than others, despite all being supposedly valid and equal contributors for the survival of the group" ?

this is an interesting question that i kind of intentionally avoided getting into initially because i want to be fair to everyone, and i do believe that the spirit of this kind of game is to encourage people to play the way that they want to, and i dont want to draw distinctions between these playstyles or put strong value statements as to what is better or more helpful than others. it is my belief/opinion that in this kind of sandboxy survival game that people should be able to play as they chose, and be equally rewarded for their time and enjoyment the game.

that said, if we do want to dig into the actual "value" of the contributions, in some ways yes, i do think that i have contributed more purely "essential" aspects to our survival, in that i do all of the missions for dukes and trading, and grow all of the food, and do all of the cooking, and was instrumental in the acquiring of key items that allowed my friend to move to the next levels of technology in his crafting (he could not have done that without my help, or could have but didnt because i did it for him as part of my style of play). that said, i dont want to underplay the value of what he has also contributed. sure we could survive by moving to a new poi every horde night and reinforcing it to hold against the horde as long as possible, but it works much better in our state of the art, kickass horde base that we have designed and refined together over many iterations and games over the years (and that he does 90% of the actual building of, as well as gathering the resources needed for said building and upgrading). not to mention, he keeps us swimming in bullets (even if IM the one who finds all the guns to fire them).

and while in a 2p game (ie no enemy players to steal our stuff) we technically dont need to have a whole separate crafting base (we could just have all that stuff on the ground in a field, or on the roof of a random poi weve claimed for our own use), its NICE to have a cool and fun crafting base, and for both of us, the aesthetics of things matters a lot, and he is instrumental in that with his skills and style of building. he also does most of the maintenance, and i will say its nice to be able to roll into base 6 in-game hours before horde night and not to have to worry that things are ready to go for when the thunder starts rumbling! just as im sure its nice for him to be able to go to the food box and eat whenever he gets hungry without having to worry about taking the time to farm and cook stuff. and i get him sweet guns and stuff, and he makes me sweet tools and stuff. between the two of us we get everything done, fullfill all of the essential and non essential rolls, and we both have fun doing it.

so in this way i DO feel that we are equal contributors to our survival, even if i am the one who is largely taking on more risks. but again that is our chosen way of splitting the labor, and sticking with what we love to do and thus allowing us to get the most of what we want to get out of the game.

we just need to be equally compensated for that work we do, and if this were the case, there would be no complaints at all.

[SylenThunder]

Something else to consider is that when you are mining/building, you are gaining exp almost constantly because the actions are very repetitive and for a long duration. When you are out looting and killing, you're only gaining it when you do those actions.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

Something that may well help is to turn OFF shared exp, then increase the exp multiplier for the game if you feel you're both levelling too slowly.

If you have shared exp on and the distance maxed out then the stay at homes will always outlevel the explorers/zombie killers on the team, because the builders are getting all the same kill exp AND the exp they get for building and mining.

You're currently creating your own problem because killing exp is shared but mining and building exp is not.

I don't think there's an up to date version, sadly, but Roland (I think) used to have a mod out which removed exp gain completely - you just level up every day you don't die. That would be perfect for keeping a team's levels in sync, so it might be worth looking if someone's published another version.

huh, this is actually a very interesting point, and i did not think of that as a possible solution to (and, if not the primary cause, certainly an exacerbation of) the problem. im not sure if it would really fully counterbalance the xp gained from digging all day every day, but yes it IS true that a large part of the xp i gain is through killing zombies, and thus i am adding directly to his xp where as little to nothing he does is adding to mine. the primary exception to this of course, is on horde nights when we are all killing zombies all night long, and this is when it makes the most sense to have shared kill xp so its not a competition of who gets the most kills (especially if many of these kills are actually from the traps).

i love the idea of just gaining xp every day you are alive. this should be part of it too, and if this is the only way to gain xp that does solve the problem in an elegantly simple way. but i do also like getting an xp bump for doing stuff, so maybe its a combination of factors. or maybe they can just put the option in the settings to share all xp, or just kill xp, or no sharing xp, so people can do how they want to?

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by SylenThunder:

Something else to consider is that when you are mining/building, you are gaining exp almost constantly because the actions are very repetitive and for a long duration. When you are out looting and killing, you're only gaining it when you do those actions.

exactly! my xp gain is interspersed timewise with a lot of travel and slow careful movement and sneaking that is essentially a time waste if we are going stricktly by a time::xp ratio.

and my argument is that this should NOT be a factor. that equal time having fun playing the game and contributing should net equal compensation via xp

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

the primary exception to this of course, is on horde nights when we are all killing zombies all night long, and this is when it makes the most sense to have shared kill xp so its not a competition of who gets the most kills (especially if many of these kills are actually from the traps).

Having sharing on but a maximum share distance of, say, 100 meters, will give you both. Day to day mission running won't share with the base builder, but horde night exp will share normally as you're fighting in the same place.

[Honorable_D]

Upgrading blocks and mining gives A LOT of EXP. That is where you are falling behind.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

Originally posted by Mithrandir:

It's your opinion, but where do you get the : "certain playstyles gain significantly more xp than others, despite all being supposedly valid and equal contributors for the survival of the group" ?

this is an interesting question that i kind of intentionally avoided getting into initially because i want to be fair to everyone, and i do believe that the spirit of this kind of game is to encourage people to play the way that they want to, and i dont want to draw distinctions between these playstyles or put strong value statements as to what is better or more helpful than others. it is my belief/opinion that in this kind of sandboxy survival game that people should be able to play as they chose, and be equally rewarded for their time and enjoyment the game.

that said, if we do want to dig into the actual "value" of the contributions, in some ways yes, i do think that i have contributed more purely "essential" aspects to our survival, in that i do all of the missions for dukes and trading, and grow all of the food, and do all of the cooking, and was instrumental in the acquiring of key items that allowed my friend to move to the next levels of technology in his crafting (he could not have done that without my help, or could have but didnt because i did it for him as part of my style of play). that said, i dont want to underplay the value of what he has also contributed. sure we could survive by moving to a new poi every horde night and reinforcing it to hold against the horde as long as possible, but it works much better in our state of the art, kickass horde base that we have designed and refined together over many iterations and games over the years (and that he does 90% of the actual building of, as well as gathering the resources needed for said building and upgrading). not to mention, he keeps us swimming in bullets (even if IM the one who finds all the guns to fire them).

and while in a 2p game (ie no enemy players to steal our stuff) we technically dont need to have a whole separate crafting base (we could just have all that stuff on the ground in a field, or on the roof of a random poi weve claimed for our own use), its NICE to have a cool and fun crafting base, and for both of us, the aesthetics of things matters a lot, and he is instrumental in that with his skills and style of building. he also does most of the maintenance, and i will say its nice to be able to roll into base 6 in-game hours before horde night and not to have to worry that things are ready to go for when the thunder starts rumbling! just as im sure its nice for him to be able to go to the food box and eat whenever he gets hungry without having to worry about taking the time to farm and cook stuff. and i get him sweet guns and stuff, and he makes me sweet tools and stuff. between the two of us we get everything done, fullfill all of the essential and non essential rolls, and we both have fun doing it.

so in this way i DO feel that we are equal contributors to our survival, even if i am the one who is largely taking on more risks. but again that is our chosen way of splitting the labor, and sticking with what we love to do and thus allowing us to get the most of what we want to get out of the game.

we just need to be equally compensated for that work we do, and if this were the case, there would be no complaints at all.

Very good points.

Again, I don't have that issue in my own coop games as my friends don't exclusively build/craft/mine from beginning to end. Your suggestion to be equally compensated (xp) for any work done in a team seems reasonable to me.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

the primary exception to this of course, is on horde nights when we are all killing zombies all night long, and this is when it makes the most sense to have shared kill xp so its not a competition of who gets the most kills (especially if many of these kills are actually from the traps).

Having sharing on but a maximum share distance of, say, 100 meters, will give you both. Day to day mission running won't share with the base builder, but horde night exp will share normally as you're fighting in the same place.

yes i was thinking the same thing after your earlier comment. thank you for the suggestion