An analysis that shows that the iron pickaxe is pretty much the same as the steel pickaxe

[itchyfart123]

I got curious about this when mining and thought "You know, given the constant nerfs to the steel pickaxe, I wonder if the iron one is better now?" Spoiler alert: it is.

Let me break down what I did here. Firstly, I gathered an entire inventory of level 6 iron pickaxes and an entire inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes from the creative menu. Since items vary in stats by a fairly large margin (20%) even on level 6s, this was necessary to eliminate the extra variable known as RNG. Secondly, I made sure to use the same mods on both of them so as to keep things consistent. The four mods were ergonomic grip, stone breaker, iron breaker, and diamond tip. Four mods that are probably the most logical to throw on pickaxes in order to maximize mining speed. Thirdly, I made sure to have all books read and all perks learned. Finally, I made sure to use buffs- rock breaker candy, skull crusher candy, and blackstrap coffee*.

For reference, the stats of a pickaxe are melee damage, power damage, block damage, stamina usage, swings per minute, and durability. In the case of the iron pickaxe, these values were 21/32/67/17/64/792 with mods**. In the case of the steel pickaxe, the values were 44/73/120/24/54/1162. The damage values to blocks of stone, respectively, were 139 and 246- four shot for the iron pickaxe, three shot for the steel pickaxe***.

For the sake of simplicity in my calculations, I'm going to ignore the mining book that gives a 20% chance to destroy ore. But, just for reference, it would have more of an impact on the iron pickaxe than on the steel pickaxe since the iron pickaxe has a higher APM. With four swings per block on the iron pickaxe and 64 APM, that's 16 blocks of stone/minute. For the steel pickaxe, with three swings per block and 54 APM, that's 18 blocks of stone/minute.

Now, the 18 blocks per minute of the steel pickaxe is a bit better, yes, but there are other things to keep in mind here. Firstly, I did not account for the 20% chance to instantly destroy ore. This would put the iron pickaxe at an even higher value- possibly surpassing the 18 BPM of the steel pickaxe. Secondly, stamina usage. Even with all perks and books learned, blackstrap coffee, and an ergonomic grip mod, the steel pickaxe STILL gradually depleted stamina whereas the iron pickaxe could continually without the need to rest. You could argue that durability has a role of making the steel pickaxe better, but with how rarely you repair a pickaxe late-game when using a diamond tip mod, I figured it made a negligible difference.

So what can be gathered from this? Assuming level 6 tools of similar RNG range, unless you have all relevant perks and books read, a constant blackstrap coffee going, and using the correct mods, the iron pickaxe will be better than the steel pickaxe.

Now for some post analysis notes and errors with this:
Firstly, the values shown in the tooltips of tools do not accurately reflect stats. These values are not only inaccurate, but don't reflect changes from perks and the like. Secondly, the skull crusher candy (extra melee damage) has no effect on mining, oddly enough. If it did, the iron pickaxe would be leaps and bounds ahead of the steel pickaxe in terms of efficiency for mining stone. Thirdly, I've heard that you can theoretically get a two shot steel pickaxe. I did not manage to get one after an entire inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes from the creative menu. This implies either outdated info, the creative menu having different stat ranges, or an exceedingly rare chance of a two shot steel pickaxe that can be obtained naturally. Either way, a three shot pickaxe is generally going to be what the player will end up with for a steel pickaxe for mining stone. Finally, regardless of the steel pickaxe or iron pickaxe, the auger still reigns supreme at almost triple the blocks/minute mined even without accounting for the instant break chance. Hooray for constant nerfs to the steel pickaxe...

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Thirdly, I've heard that you can theoretically get a two shot steel pickaxe. I did not manage to get one after an entire inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes from the creative menu.

A random modifier of 1.02 or better will push a steel pickaxe into 2-shot stone range. Sounds like you were using a steel pick axe with a random modifier < 1.02.

My steel pickaxe in the last game I was playing would 2 shot stone. Going from 3-shot to 2-shot makes steel pickaxe very worth it, for most people anyway.

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Hooray for constant nerfs to the steel pickaxe...

When did steel pickaxe get constantly nerfed? I must have missed that series of anti-steel pickaxe patches.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Thirdly, I've heard that you can theoretically get a two shot steel pickaxe. I did not manage to get one after an entire inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes from the creative menu.

How were you rolling the pickaxes?

If you just searched Iron/Steel Pickaxe, and then filled your inventory from that alone, then all the pickaxes you got were identical.

You have to change the search term to re-generate the item each and every time to get new stats rolled; which also re-rolls quality.

You can howevver just take a letter away to re-roll once, and then add the letter back to reroll again.
EG: "Steel Pickaxe" "Steel Pickax" "Steel Pickaxe".

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

When did steel pickaxe get constantly nerfed? I must have missed that series of anti-steel pickaxe patches.

Less of direct nerfs and more of a series of side effects. The decreased stamina regen and increased hunger consumption of a19, for example, indirectly nerf the steel pickaxe by forcing the player to stop mining frequently, even with stamina regen and perks.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Thirdly, I've heard that you can theoretically get a two shot steel pickaxe. I did not manage to get one after an entire inventory of level 6 steel pickaxes from the creative menu.

How were you rolling the pickaxes?

If you just searched Iron/Steel Pickaxe, and then filled your inventory from that alone, then all the pickaxes you got were identical.

You have to change the search term to re-generate the item each and every time to get new stats rolled; which also re-rolls quality.

You can howevver just take a letter away to re-roll once, and then add the letter back to reroll again.
EG: "Steel Pickaxe" "Steel Pickax" "Steel Pickaxe".

That is what I did, no worries. The stats of each pickaxe were randomized and I chose the best of the full inventory of each type. Although with what JimmyIowa said, I’m led to believe the creative menu is glitchy and doesn’t have a full range of RNG stats that a crafted or found weapon has. But that’s waaaay more effort to test.

[JimmyIowa]

The math should look something like this. However this is mostly from memory. (I haven't played actively in a few months waiting for A20.) So I might forget something.

The base block damage for the steel pickaxe, as you know is 62.8

Assume first an item with 0.0 for the random modifier. (Random modifier can be -0.15 to 0.15) in 0.01 increments.

Non-random modifiers that add a percent of base dmg:
Tier bonus for a tier 6 item (50%)
Miner 69 bonus (150%)
4 x Mod bonus (10% each)
15% Iron breaker or Stone breaker bonus (depending on what you are mining)

So the modified block dmg is
(62.8 + (62.8 * 0.5) + (62.8 * 1.5) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1)) * 1.15 = 245.55

So a pick axe with a random modifier of 0.0 or below cannot two shot stone.

Now a random modifier of 0.2 gives

245.55 * 1.02 = 250.46

Two shots stone.

[Semirotta]

What I noticed is that Steel pickaxe takes tons of stamina, is slower to use compared to Iron pickaxe. They give pretty much same amount of resources and Steel deals slightly more dmg.... Imho Steel is no point to get unless you're swimming in metals and repair kits to keep repairing them.

[Teresa]

Steel pickaxe is much better with max sexual tyrannosaurus and end game food for the big max stamina bonus. Along with coffee and rockbusters. Keep drinks on your hotbar to quickly get a boost of stam if you need it.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

The math should look something like this. However this is mostly from memory. (I haven't played actively in a few months waiting for A20.) So I might forget something.

The base block damage for the steel pickaxe, as you know is 62.8

Assume first an item with 0.0 for the random modifier. (Random modifier can be -0.15 to 0.15) in 0.01 increments.

Non-random modifiers that add a percent of base dmg:
Tier bonus for a tier 6 item (50%)
Miner 69 bonus (150%)
4 x Mod bonus (10% each)
15% Iron breaker or Stone breaker bonus (depending on what you are mining)

So the modified block dmg is
(62.8 + (62.8 * 0.5) + (62.8 * 1.5) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1)) * 1.15 = 245.55

So a pick axe with a random modifier of 0.0 or below cannot two shot stone.

Now a random modifier of 0.2 gives

245.55 * 1.02 = 250.46

Two shots stone.

Like I said, it’s entirely possible that that is correct and the creative menu is just bugged. But even if it is, unless you get a roll higher than 1.02 according to that, the steel pickaxe is pretty much equal or worse.

Originally posted by Teresa:

Steel pickaxe is much better with max sexual tyrannosaurus and end game food for the big max stamina bonus. Along with coffee and rockbusters. Keep drinks on your hotbar to quickly get a boost of stam if you need it.

I just did the math that showed it wasn’t much better, though… Even with all perks, books read, buffs, and mods, they’re still… just about the same.

[Malak]

Way more amazing to me is that the stone axe works better overall early to mid-game because it does not use hardly any stamina, so you can keep going near non-stop!

[Teresa]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

The math should look something like this. However this is mostly from memory. (I haven't played actively in a few months waiting for A20.) So I might forget something.

The base block damage for the steel pickaxe, as you know is 62.8

Assume first an item with 0.0 for the random modifier. (Random modifier can be -0.15 to 0.15) in 0.01 increments.

Non-random modifiers that add a percent of base dmg:
Tier bonus for a tier 6 item (50%)
Miner 69 bonus (150%)
4 x Mod bonus (10% each)
15% Iron breaker or Stone breaker bonus (depending on what you are mining)

So the modified block dmg is
(62.8 + (62.8 * 0.5) + (62.8 * 1.5) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1) + (62.8 * 0.1)) * 1.15 = 245.55

So a pick axe with a random modifier of 0.0 or below cannot two shot stone.

Now a random modifier of 0.2 gives

245.55 * 1.02 = 250.46

Two shots stone.

Like I said, it’s entirely possible that that is correct and the creative menu is just bugged. But even if it is, unless you get a roll higher than 1.02 according to that, the steel pickaxe is pretty much equal or worse.

Originally posted by Teresa:

Steel pickaxe is much better with max sexual tyrannosaurus and end game food for the big max stamina bonus. Along with coffee and rockbusters. Keep drinks on your hotbar to quickly get a boost of stam if you need it.

I just did the math that showed it wasn’t much better, though… Even with all perks, books read, buffs, and mods, they’re still… just about the same.

Maybe i missed it, but i saw where you mentioned that steel tools gradually deplete stamina. I specifically mentioned end game foods, which give a big max stamina bonus thus making the stamina depletion negligible and mostly negate that disadvantage. I did not see that you tested with the buff from tuna fish gravy and toast or spaghetti or something like that.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Semirotta:

What I noticed is that Steel pickaxe takes tons of stamina, is slower to use compared to Iron pickaxe.

By the time you have end game stats and perks, using the steel pickaxe for long periods is no problem.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by Teresa:

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Like I said, it’s entirely possible that that is correct and the creative menu is just bugged. But even if it is, unless you get a roll higher than 1.02 according to that, the steel pickaxe is pretty much equal or worse.






I just did the math that showed it wasn’t much better, though… Even with all perks, books read, buffs, and mods, they’re still… just about the same.

Maybe i missed it, but i saw where you mentioned that steel tools gradually deplete stamina. I specifically mentioned end game foods, which give a big max stamina bonus thus making the stamina depletion negligible and mostly negate that disadvantage. I did not see that you tested with the buff from tuna fish gravy and toast or spaghetti or something like that.

Having tested just now with meat stew, that does seem to push the stamina regeneration up just enough to maintain it. But even then, that requires a nonstop blackstrap coffee buff, all perks, all books, a minimum stamina cost steel pickaxe, and an ergonomic grip mod. Without the coffee, the player has to rest once every two minutes with the steel pickaxe and once every 12 or so minutes with the iron pickaxe.

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by Semirotta:

What I noticed is that Steel pickaxe takes tons of stamina, is slower to use compared to Iron pickaxe.

By the time you have end game stats and perks, using the steel pickaxe for long periods is no problem.

It depends what you qualify as long periods of time. If you just plan on mining some misplaced blocks, it’s fine. But if you plan on excavating a large area for a build, you need frequent breaks or nonstop buffs, even end-game.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

It depends what you qualify as long periods of time. If you just plan on mining some misplaced blocks, it’s fine. But if you plan on excavating a large area for a build, you need frequent breaks or nonstop buffs, even end-game.

Buffs like coffee are easy to get. So "nonstop buffs" is not even a slight issue. Not even a teensy eensy one. By the time you have steel pickaxes, you also have a farm, which means you have enough excess mountains of food and coffee to fill the grand canyon if you choose. The steel pickaxe is faster, and that's what matters to me.

I'm not really arguing with you. I am okay with the idea you prefer the iron pickaxe. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it. But I will take the one that mines faster. And for new players reading this thread I think they should have all the information instead of a flawed "analysis". I hope you understand now, and I honestly don't mean to offend you or start some sort of unpleasant exchange.

[Teresa]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Originally posted by Teresa:

Maybe i missed it, but i saw where you mentioned that steel tools gradually deplete stamina. I specifically mentioned end game foods, which give a big max stamina bonus thus making the stamina depletion negligible and mostly negate that disadvantage. I did not see that you tested with the buff from tuna fish gravy and toast or spaghetti or something like that.

Having tested just now with meat stew, that does seem to push the stamina regeneration up just enough to maintain it. But even then, that requires a nonstop blackstrap coffee buff, all perks, all books, a minimum stamina cost steel pickaxe, and an ergonomic grip mod. Without the coffee, the player has to rest once every two minutes with the steel pickaxe and once every 12 or so minutes with the iron pickaxe.

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

By the time you have end game stats and perks, using the steel pickaxe for long periods is no problem.

It depends what you qualify as long periods of time. If you just plan on mining some misplaced blocks, it’s fine. But if you plan on excavating a large area for a build, you need frequent breaks or nonstop buffs, even end-game.

Meat stew is mid game food, not end game. It gives +20 max stam. The end game foods give double that.

By the time i max sex rex, i have the end game recipes for food.

With my q5 steel pickaxe, my stam doesn't deplete til my coffee buff wears off, so i just chug another one. My farm gives me infinitely more coffee than i could ever drink. If you plan to mine a moderate amount, not having a farm for the best food ingredients and coffee is stupid imo.

[itchyfart123]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

It depends what you qualify as long periods of time. If you just plan on mining some misplaced blocks, it’s fine. But if you plan on excavating a large area for a build, you need frequent breaks or nonstop buffs, even end-game.

Buffs like coffee are easy to get. So "nonstop buffs" is not even a slight issue. Not even a teensy eensy one. By the time you have steel pickaxes, you also have a farm, which means you have enough excess mountains of food and coffee to fill the grand canyon if you choose. The steel pickaxe is faster, and that's what matters to me.

I'm not really arguing with you. I am okay with the idea you prefer the iron pickaxe. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it. But I will take the one that mines faster. And for new players reading this thread I think they should have all the information instead of a flawed "analysis". I hope you understand now, and I honestly don't mean to offend you or start some sort of unpleasant exchange.

I’m less concerned about materials and more about the time it takes to consume buff items and the frequency at which they have to be consumed. In the case of blackstrap coffee, the RNG of getting the recipe can be good or bad, but we’ll assume you get it at the same time as steel picks. With no iron gut, that’s a coffee every 6 minutes, 12 minutes with. I say without first since iron gut is personally one of the later perks I get, typically not bothering until maybe level 150+. And no need to worry about offending me, this is just a civil discussion. :)

Interestingly, it looks like the math you posted earlier is correct and the creative menu is just broken. I did a quick test to see how natural level 6 items faired and they could have much higher stats. I went ahead and reported that.

Originally posted by Teresa:

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

Having tested just now with meat stew, that does seem to push the stamina regeneration up just enough to maintain it. But even then, that requires a nonstop blackstrap coffee buff, all perks, all books, a minimum stamina cost steel pickaxe, and an ergonomic grip mod. Without the coffee, the player has to rest once every two minutes with the steel pickaxe and once every 12 or so minutes with the iron pickaxe.



It depends what you qualify as long periods of time. If you just plan on mining some misplaced blocks, it’s fine. But if you plan on excavating a large area for a build, you need frequent breaks or nonstop buffs, even end-game.

Meat stew is mid game food, not end game. It gives +20 max stam. The end game foods give double that.

By the time i max sex rex, i have the end game recipes for food.

With my q5 steel pickaxe, my stam doesn't deplete til my coffee buff wears off, so i just chug another one. My farm gives me infinitely more coffee than i could ever drink. If you plan to mine a moderate amount, not having a farm for the best food ingredients and coffee is stupid imo.

True about end game foods, but stamina bonus matters much less than stamina regen and stamina cost. As for the meat stew, that was an error on my part. I tend to default to meat stew as it doesn’t take canned foods and is much easier to craft as a result. Canned foods are one of the first things I get rid of when looting in favor of other more important things.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by itchyfart123:

And no need to worry about offending me, this is just a civil discussion. :)

Cool. Btw - if you want actual tool imbalance to discuss, the stone axe is better than the steel axe. And yeah, they need to address that at some point. I still ran with a stone axe on my level 300 character last game. The pickaxe balance is okay though.