zombies are getting too "smart"/capable and missing the mark of what a zombie should be.

[KromeHWI]

i read in another post that in the next update zombies will be swimming now (in addition to digging, and cleverly navigating around pits and traps and stuff). and a dev commented saying something like:

"Ideally with time zombies should always be able to reach the player."

i hear you from a game perspective, but in some ways this notion frustrates me, and i feel misses the mark with what zombies are supposed to be. they are zombies. they are supposed to be dumb as rocks, and their danger is in numbers and unending relentlessness, not in their navigation skills and intelligence.

as intelligent humans we SHOULD be able to outsmart and manipulate them. we SHOULD be able to exploit their base instincts (and AI) to some extent. they should NOT be unstoppable juggernauts, nor should they have the brain of a super computer allowing them to bypass all of our clever defenses. escaping on a boat SHOULD be a viable solution to avoiding most of the horde (if you are lucky or skilled enough to find/buy/build a boat). building confusing/clever base layouts to trap the zombies in kill loops and whatnot SHOULD work too, and it should reward players for thinking cleverly, and outside of the box.

my favorite part of the World War Z book i think perfectly illustrates zombies. it's the part where the army blows up the bridge on the mountain pass, and the narrator is knocked senseless by the explosion for a moment, and as they come to, they wonder what that regular popping sound is, and it turns out it's a massive herd of zombies lemming-ing themselves off of the cliff opposite as they try to get at the fresh meat that they can see on the other side of the gap. they just walk forward at the meal and fall to their destruction on the rocks below. in this game they would simply go around, or dig a tunnel in the earth to get back up, or destroy the bridge supports, so that the rest of the bridge falls into the pass, or something else very not zombie-like like that.

swimming zombies... eh... that also just doesnt feel right to me. there are better ways to get around this. if they player is swimming or on a boat, spawn more vultures, or more spitters, or have the zombies walk to the ground directly below the player underwater, and start climbing on each other to get at them or something like that. this fits better the idea of what a zombie is supposed to be.

or have a SOME of the zombies (like the fat ones) float and sort of flounder in your general direction, but not all of them. there was a bit (in the zombie survival guide maybe?) about zombies rafting together with the most bloated ones for ballast, but this was rare, and very aimless and slow, rather than directly swimming at players.

i dont want to see zombies doing the breaststroke, or even the zombie paddle, this just doesnt feel right to me. its way scarier to have zombies walking along the bottoms of rivers and ponds, reaching out to grab you and pull you under as you swim above them. sure you can escape the bulk of a horde by jumping in deep water, but you cant fight well while swimming (or shouldnt be able to) and the vultures will come, and the spitters will spit, and the only escape is to duck under the water where you are more in reach of those below, and where you can not breath or fight at all!

i worry that the obsession with trying to make the zombies always be able to get at the players no matter what they do, is damaging the nature of the zombies themselves, and making them too "advanced" (smart/capable) for what a zombie is supposed to be. with enough ingenuity, an intelligent human SHOULD be able to find a way to make themselves "safe" from the zombies, at least temporarily.

does this make bloodrush night less dangerous? sure. less fun? maybe, depending on who you ask, but to me the reward for your hard and clever work SHOULD be relative safety. and if you want to fight the horde head on, you still can.

my 2¢

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"ANSWER"/post debate conclusions:

i want to thank everyone for participating in this important thematic debate. it gets right at the core of the feel of this game, and as such it is an important, complex discussion. this also means that there is no clear cut "answer" to this issue. it is based largely on different player's preferences, and if debating it has made anything clear to me, it is that you can not please everyone. all the devs can do is try to find the right balance between the new, more exciting/challenging video game style zombies, and the much loved classic style zombies. the best way to achieve this is by trying to find a good balance initially, and then having as many customizable settings in the game as possible, so individual players can make the game feel the way they want it to. so far the devs are doing a pretty good job of this, and discussions like this one can help them dial it in even better, by hearing articulated feedback from a variety of sources (players who are clearly invested in the game enough to buy into EA and offer their feedback).

i would specifically like to shout out thanks to shurenai and jost amman, for their contribution to this debate. they differ from my opinions often, but also had a lot of good and productive things to say, and some undeniable points that helped make this an interesting and productive debate, as well as to shift my own views a little as well (as i would hope i was able to do for them in return).

the "answer" to this debate is long and complex and multifaceted (basically it is the bulk of the whole thread), but i will endeavor to summarize some of the most salient points here:

1: make the zombies too simple and their threat diminishes. this is not necessarily the case, as the real danger of the classic zombie is in their numbers, but given the current (and likely to some extent the final) limitations of the engine, the kinds of numbers that would be needed to do the classic zombies true justice just may not be feasible in this game. it CAN be done, project zomboid does a great job with classic shambling zombies still being a clear and constant threat, but that is also a much simpler game and it can handle muuuch larger hordes than this game is currently capable of running. once this game is completed and optimized we might be able to see the numbers we'd need, but maybe not. we will have to wait and see.

2: make zombies too advanced/capable and they dont feel like zombies anymore, instead they feel like some sort of undead demon monsters. this is also not necessarily a bad thing, but it does not sit well with a large portion of the player base. granted this new kind of zombie is gaining popularity in games and media, but even then, they are usually faster, but not overly powerful. right now, they have probably pushed them a little too far (hence this debate starting in the first place).

3: the current AI is a place holder for what it will become, and is being developed in preparation for NPCs and bandits. likely the zombies will be scaled back somewhat in power once the bandits have been implemented (which will make the BANDITS the greatest threat in the game, as it should be), but until then there still needs to be a persistent threat, and all we have is the zombies, so we have super zombies.

4: the devs are trying to identify and address exploits that break the game (such as the 3 block hole with a patch of dirt over your head), but are (hopefully) not planning to close all the loop holes, so as to allow players to outsmart and manipulate the dumb zombies in thematically appropriate ways.

5: the devs are operating from the notion that "given enough time the zombies will ALWAYS be able to reach the player." this is fine, and does not negate either type of zombie. the trick is finding the right balance of "given enough time." they are working on that, and as stated above, are pushing things harder than they may in the final release right now for testing and experimental purposes. this is why they are giving the zombies so many abilities. only time and further testing will tell how many of these abilities will remain in game, or to what extent and power they have.

6: the devs are intentionally making these zombies their own take on zombies. this is fine, and completely within their rights to do so. granted some players (myself including) may not agree 100% with their ideas, but that doesnt change that they will make the game they want to make, and that the devs are focused more on the game play they want to see, more so than staying true to classic zombie lore. the good thing, is that they also have a lot of settings for players to tweak if they want to make the zombies more "traditional." this is the win win win solution (and closest thing to an "answer" we will come to), as it allows the devs to have fun with their take on zombies, while allowing players to play the game they want to play.


in summary, its all about finding a balance. balance between new and classic zombies, balance in aspects of game play mechanics, and balance between different settings that you can adjust to make things they way you want them to be. have they found that balance yet? no clearly they have not, but the game is in EA still, so expecting it to be perfect already is unrealistic and absurd, and defeats much of the point of releasing a game in EA, which is all about finding said balances with the help of the players who have already bought into the game. all in all, the devs so far seem to be doing a pretty good job at this, and it is discussions like this (that are NOT cut and dry with one RIGHT opinion) that can help to shape what that balance will look like, and help craft the game into its best possible form, given the limitations of technology, and time/money of the devs.

so thank you all for participating in this important discussion! and especially thank you to the DEVS for making what will hopefully be one of the best zombie games yet!
cheers!

[KromeHWI]

Publicado originalmente por ✠ ꓙꓳꓢꓔ ꓮꓟꓟꓮꓠ:

@KromeHWI
Sorry, the discussion got so long and winded that I forgot you already aknowledged that.

it happens, especially when 5 pages in :)
thank you for acknowledging it.

[Boresight]

Will the zombies be able to ride vehicles and use weapons? I can just imagine zombies landing at my base in gyrocopters.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Publicado originalmente por Boresight:

Will the zombies be able to ride vehicles and use weapons? I can just imagine zombies landing at my base in gyrocopters.

Yes, they're AI will approximately be like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6LWNQqs7TE

[KromeHWI]

ahhahahaha! that video is hilarious (especially the sand raider pose at the end)!

but im certainly hoping the zombies will not do these things (gyrocopters dropping demos inside your walls?!!??). the bandits sure will though id assume.

[Dazren]

One thing thats been annoying me recently is there is no way to block, and no way to run backwards, but yet the zombies are faster than you are walking. The only idea to avoid being hit is to swing, turn around and run, turn around and hit them, turn and run etc.

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por Dazren:

One thing thats been annoying me recently is there is no way to block, and no way to run backwards, but yet the zombies are faster than you are walking. The only idea to avoid being hit is to swing, turn around and run, turn around and hit them, turn and run etc.

Not even close. You can walk backwards, swing, and still be out of reach so long as you can connect your hits (not hard to do, even with a spear). Now, if you have multiples on you? You can kite them into a line and still be safe, then repeat the above and you're good to go. Although blocking WOULD be nice at least if you're using a two-handed weapon (no point in blocking with one arm when you'd be easily overwhelmed).

[KromeHWI]

i do agree that it would be nice to have a way to block, or kick. something to fend them off a bit and buy you time to reload. a kick wold be especially useful because you could do it while wielding a gun or bow, giving you a fall back emergency melee attack for when they get to close (without having to swap weapons). damage could be based on the class of boots you are wearing and your stats.

yes you can walk backwards, but not as fast as they can run forward. yes hitting them can stun them a bit, but it doesnt always. that said, armor is kind of amazing in this game. get tooled up in full metal armor and you take hits like a champ without much to worry about (except getting stunned or bled). still, yes, a block and/or kick move would be great!

[Geck0]

Publicado originalmente por Boresight:

Will the zombies be able to ride vehicles and use weapons? I can just imagine zombies landing at my base in gyrocopters.

Zombies no, bandits maybe.

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por KromeHWI:

i do agree that it would be nice to have a way to block, or kick. something to fend them off a bit and buy you time to reload. a kick wold be especially useful because you could do it while wielding a gun or bow, giving you a fall back emergency melee attack for when they get to close (without having to swap weapons). damage could be based on the class of boots you are wearing and your stats.

yes you can walk backwards, but not as fast as they can run forward. yes hitting them can stun them a bit, but it doesnt always. that said, armor is kind of amazing in this game. get tooled up in full metal armor and you take hits like a champ without much to worry about (except getting stunned or bled). still, yes, a block and/or kick move would be great!

While a block mechanic might seem great, it implements a pretty heft problem at the same time... The damage values and threats in the game are balanced around NOT having a block mechanic. If one were implemented, then damage and mechanics would need to be beefed up to compensate- To the point where failing to block would be a very deadly threat. This would make the running zombies very dangerous- And the zombies that catch you by surprise very much fatal.

There's a reason why in most games with block and active dodge mechanics the enemies hit so very hard. And that reason is that the incoming damage needs to remain a credible threat. :P

Dark souls is an exemplary example like this- You either block, you dodge, Or you die very quickly as even a single hit from a trash-mob enemy can take over half your health bar.

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Publicado originalmente por KromeHWI:

i do agree that it would be nice to have a way to block, or kick. something to fend them off a bit and buy you time to reload. a kick wold be especially useful because you could do it while wielding a gun or bow, giving you a fall back emergency melee attack for when they get to close (without having to swap weapons). damage could be based on the class of boots you are wearing and your stats.

yes you can walk backwards, but not as fast as they can run forward. yes hitting them can stun them a bit, but it doesnt always. that said, armor is kind of amazing in this game. get tooled up in full metal armor and you take hits like a champ without much to worry about (except getting stunned or bled). still, yes, a block and/or kick move would be great!

While a block mechanic might seem great, it implements a pretty heft problem at the same time... The damage values and threats in the game are balanced around NOT having a block mechanic. If one were implemented, then damage and mechanics would need to be beefed up to compensate- To the point where failing to block would be a very deadly threat. This would make the running zombies very dangerous- And the zombies that catch you by surprise very much fatal.

There's a reason why in most games with block and active dodge mechanics the enemies hit so very hard. And that reason is that the incoming damage needs to remain a credible threat. :P

Dark souls is an exemplary example like this- You either block, you dodge, Or you die very quickly as even a single hit from a trash-mob enemy can take over half your health bar.

The incoming damage is still a credible threat, and I fail to see why damage would have to be buffed for zombies to account for blocking. You either block and take no damage (aside from perhaps increased tool degradation and glove degradation), or you take the normal damage which would still have to account for your armor as normal. The real problem I'd see is blocking against multiple zombies, which would be unrealistic considering their sheer strength in numbers would easily overwhelm anyone, so it'd have to be accounted for how to program to take tool/glove damage from one zombie while still taking normal damage from others zombies who aren't being actively blocked (basically only blocking one zombie instead of all which attack you).

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

While a block mechanic might seem great, it implements a pretty heft problem at the same time... The damage values and threats in the game are balanced around NOT having a block mechanic. If one were implemented, then damage and mechanics would need to be beefed up to compensate- To the point where failing to block would be a very deadly threat. This would make the running zombies very dangerous- And the zombies that catch you by surprise very much fatal.

There's a reason why in most games with block and active dodge mechanics the enemies hit so very hard. And that reason is that the incoming damage needs to remain a credible threat. :P

Dark souls is an exemplary example like this- You either block, you dodge, Or you die very quickly as even a single hit from a trash-mob enemy can take over half your health bar.

The incoming damage is still a credible threat, and I fail to see why damage would have to be buffed for zombies to account for blocking. You either block and take no damage (aside from perhaps increased tool degradation and glove degradation), or you take the normal damage which would still have to account for your armor as normal. The real problem I'd see is blocking against multiple zombies, which would be unrealistic considering their sheer strength in numbers would easily overwhelm anyone, so it'd have to be accounted for how to program to take tool/glove damage from one zombie while still taking normal damage from others zombies who aren't being actively blocked (basically only blocking one zombie instead of all which attack you).

Simply put, IF blocking is implemented, And IF the damage remains as is, Then being able to block all the damage 90% of the time through skillful blocking means...That one time you get hit you take....1-10~ damage after all your armor(On default difficulty).. It's not a credible threat at all.

At level 1, in no armor, you have 100hp- That's 9 hits you can tank without dying, At level 1- Now assume a 90% block rate, a perfect 9 blocks, then 1 hit, And you survive 89 consecutive attacks, dying to the 90th. (9x10=90 of course, -1 is you still being alive before the final hit.) -- That's assuming 100% high damage rolls, no low rolls at all; And thats before accounting for self healing via Healing Factor, which you can pick up at level 1; Or any medical supplies. -- Add light armor and you're taking 5~ damage; Add heavy armor and/or pain killer and you're taking 0-2 damage; Add that you gain 1hp per level to a maximum of 200, And the number of hits required to kill you skyrockets.

The 'Normal' damage is only a threat Because you cannot block it, or actively dodge away from it. So yes, In order for damage to remain a credible threat post addition of blocking or dodging mechanics, The zombies would need to hit much much harder in those rare times they do actually get a hit in for it to be a credible danger to your person.

And you do make a point there at the end; Being able to block against multiple zombies itself is a hard to balance problem. Obviously every block must do something like consuming a bit of durability from your weapon, but, even that isn't really a balance to being able to block several zombies at a time. Blocking consuming stamina could work, maybe- But that's even more strain on an already tight stamina bar.

Edit: To put the above into some perspective; Just the addition of a blocking mechanic without any changes would effectively turn a level 1 brand new character into a tank on par with a current character with steel armor and pain tolerance- Which is effectively invincible as far as things go as it can facetank hordes even up on survivalist difficulty with very little trouble. (Mines still kill you.)

That same character with blocking then in steel armor and pain tolerance is several magnitudes more durable now, and the only thing that CAN kill them at that point is trap explosives like the air filter land mine- Things that can instantly kill from full HP, which you can pick up a skill to fix.

[KromeHWI]

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

The incoming damage is still a credible threat, and I fail to see why damage would have to be buffed for zombies to account for blocking. [...] The real problem I'd see is blocking against multiple zombies, which would be unrealistic considering their sheer strength in numbers would easily overwhelm anyone[...] (basically only blocking one zombie instead of all which attack you).

Simply put, IF blocking is implemented, And IF the damage remains as is, Then being able to block all the damage 90% of the time through skillful blocking means...That one time you get hit you take....1-10~ damage after all your armor(On default difficulty).. It's not a credible threat at all.
[...]
And you do make a point there at the end; Being able to block against multiple zombies itself is a hard to balance problem. Obviously every block must do something like consuming a bit of durability from your weapon, but, even that isn't really a balance to being able to block several zombies at a time. [...]

to be fair, think he WAS saying that blocking multiple zombies at once should not be doable (or at least that is what i read from the comment). you also make some good points about how blocking would lessen the danger of the zombies.

i think a compromise here could be to have blocking reduce the damage rather than fully negate it, and of course deal damage to the durability of your blocking weapon (or shield), the same way it does to your armor. at the least it should consume stamina to block (perhaps even based on the amount of damage absorbed), making continuous blocking a losing battle of attrition (the tireder you get, the less damage your block absorbs, until you cant do anything else but take it).

but lets get to the root here. when against one zombie, it SHOULD be possible to fend it off. its just one zombie, and not that capable or dangerous on its own (once you have progressed past the first few levels a single zombie should not BE a credible threat anymore). the danger of zombies has always been in their numbers. yes you could block the first one, or even maybe two zombies that come at you, but pretty soon they will overpower you, and you will no longer be able to block them all. this is when the damage piles in and the danger appears. ONE zombie should never be all that dangerous. groups of zombies are the danger. just as even if ignored a single zombie should never be able to punch through your steel wall, it just doesnt make sense. groups of zombies on the other hand...

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por KromeHWI:

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Simply put, IF blocking is implemented, And IF the damage remains as is, Then being able to block all the damage 90% of the time through skillful blocking means...That one time you get hit you take....1-10~ damage after all your armor(On default difficulty).. It's not a credible threat at all.
[...]
And you do make a point there at the end; Being able to block against multiple zombies itself is a hard to balance problem. Obviously every block must do something like consuming a bit of durability from your weapon, but, even that isn't really a balance to being able to block several zombies at a time. [...]

to be fair, think he WAS saying that blocking multiple zombies at once should not be doable (or at least that is what i read from the comment). you also make some good points about how blocking would lessen the danger of the zombies.

i think a compromise here could be to have blocking reduce the damage rather than fully negate it, and of course deal damage to the durability of your blocking weapon (or shield), the same way it does to your armor. at the least it should consume stamina to block (perhaps even based on the amount of damage absorbed), making continuous blocking a losing battle of attrition (the tireder you get, the less damage your block absorbs, until you cant do anything else but take it).

but lets get to the root here. when against one zombie, it SHOULD be possible to fend it off. its just one zombie, and not that capable or dangerous on its own (once you have progressed past the first few levels a single zombie should not BE a credible threat anymore). the danger of zombies has always been in their numbers. yes you could block the first one, or even maybe two zombies that come at you, but pretty soon they will overpower you, and you will no longer be able to block them all. this is when the damage piles in and the danger appears. ONE zombie should never be all that dangerous. groups of zombies are the danger. just as even if ignored a single zombie should never be able to punch through your steel wall, it just doesnt make sense. groups of zombies on the other hand...

Problem is that the game engine can't handle having tons and tons of zombies- Most encounters with zombies, with the exception of horde night, are against one or two of them unless you make an excessive amount of noise in a very populated place; Even then, there's rarely more than 6 or so; which are easy to lead around and basically engage one or two at a time

Since' we're at or at least towards the root, Look at it this way- Everyone always whines that zombies are supposed to be dumb; Weak individually. Pair these two things and a single zombie is never a threat- A dozen zombies aren't any more of a threat either, because you can essentially conga line them by walking them in a circle. They're too dumb to know better anyway. So it would be insufferably easy to only ever be engaging just one zombie at a time if you were at all intelligent in your handling of the situation.

That's the big problem old zombie movies had- The shambling zombies weren't a threat when the 'players' were on their toes, and the players only ever died when they did really stupid ♥♥♥♥ like getting cornered in a small room with no way out but the way they came in, where there is now a dozen zombies. You can say all day long that 'they're supposed to be dangerous in numbers'; But that simply isn't true unless you've gotten yourself into a situation where you're cornered on all sides. A dozen mindless shambling zombies is no more dangerous than a single mindless shambling zombie in an open field when you have your wits about you.

That's in large part why modern zombies sprint, and are more aware/intelligent than their older shambling ancestors. A single sprinting semi-intelligent zombie is a credible threat to a survivor even if it's in an open field and they're prepared to shoot.


Sure. If there were 1000 zombies roaming around you at all times constantly throughout play, I could see each individual zombie being weaker- But that's just not feasible in the current game engine. Unity has a rough time handling more than 64 entities at a time. So each and every zombie in 7DTD is fundamentally standing in for more than just one.

[Rio]

It gets pretty old when every zombie sprints after taking a hit or two. Its no longer a suprise or a risk, its an annoyance then.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Publicado originalmente por pernicious:

It gets pretty old when every zombie sprints after taking a hit or two. Its no longer a suprise or a risk, its an annoyance then.

Well, everything it's an annoyance after a while... :-]