[1.0] Traders and Trading Way Too Strong Still, Random Drops Too Much

[Keman]

After playing for quite a bit, there are four major problems regarding these.

1. Drops are still too high on high tier weapons. Before day 7, we keep finding tier 3 items. I'll be crafting level 4 stone spears, and there is a steel spear! Crafting is pointless so far, significantly better items just rain down long before you can make it.
2. Selling to the trader grants way too much XP. We had a player 10+ levels above at all times into the 50-60 range for basically just selling junk rapidly from vehicles, with 40k+ xp being easily possible after a moderate amount of hunting.
3. Breaking down vehicles sell for way too much. I am not talking about a little, I'm talking about grabbing a wrench and earning tens of thousands fairly quickly. Everything else is trivial, especially if you spec for it in intellect.
4. The trader sells way too good of items for those in intellect. The whole point of crafting is to actually need to craft. Break down some cars, suddenly you have a tier 3 weapon before the first 7th day. Level 3 pump shotgun day 5 I think. Seems to keep happening.

I get it's fun to find nice items, but the whole point of a lot of this reorganizing was to make traders less broken, and not finding super high level items before you craft them. Both are still happening early on. Right now, breaking down cars and spamming the trade quest are by far the most functional thing to do, and I don't like being shoehorned into it.

[Keman]

Publicado originalmente por Pain Weasel:

Publicado originalmente por Keman:

Break down some cars, suddenly you have a tier 3 weapon before the first 7th day. Level 3 pump shotgun day 5 I think. Seems to keep happening.

Just to be clear,a Pump Shotgun is not T3, it is T2 ("gunShotgunT2PumpShotgun" in the XML). If you have an Auto Shotgun then yeah, that's T3.

Wait, it goes "Pipe shotgun -> double barrel shotgun -> pump shotgun -> auto shotgun." Are pipes some sort of tier 0, or are there two tier 2?

[Pain Weasel]

Publicado originalmente por Keman:

Publicado originalmente por Pain Weasel:

Just to be clear,a Pump Shotgun is not T3, it is T2 ("gunShotgunT2PumpShotgun" in the XML). If you have an Auto Shotgun then yeah, that's T3.

Wait, it goes "Pipe shotgun -> double barrel shotgun -> pump shotgun -> auto shotgun." Are pipes some sort of tier 0, or are there two tier 2?

Pipe is T0 "gunShotgunT0PipeShotgun"

Anything that is unlocked when you start the game is tier 0. Stone tools, pipe weapons etc.

There are a few items that double up, handguns for example. The SMG-5 is considered T3 but so is the Desert Vulture.

Batons on the other hand don't have a T1 or T3.

When it comes to traders' inventory there are some differences in the type of item in addition to the tier. T3 bows for example only need a traderstage of 50, while T3 tools and other weapons need a 100. Additionally, lower tier weapons and tools increase in quality level as the traderstage goes up, but T3 weapons and tools are sold at all quality levels, excluding 6, as soon as you hit 100.

[Pain Weasel]

Back to the topic. I think the map has more to do with which is the easiest path than difficulty or number of players or any other setting.

For crafting nothing beats a Crack A Book. You can get 50+ magazines easily, plus a bunch of perk books and schematics. The POI is easy to clear on any difficulty because all the zombies are sleepers and there are no spawn triggers. You can literally kill everything from stealth, even the ones that drop down through the sky light (sneak around and fire an arrow up to reveal them, then kill them while they sleep). Prior to the Lock Pick nerf I could put 2 points in both Lock Picks and Adv Eng and get 20-25 Forge Ahead magazines from a single Crack A Book store.

On a map like Navezgane there is only 1 Crack A Book store, 1 cafe and 1 country crack a book, I think. You can't really abuse the POI for magazines because they are unique. Investing into INT and going hard at the traders can have a very big payoff though, particularly since progression is generally slower due to the distances between POIs. Getting an extra 40 traderstage just from having Daring Adventurer 4 really speeds things up.

Conversely I just created an absolutely ridiculous 8k RWG map that has 14 Crack A Book stores, 4 Crack A Book cafes, and 2 country Crack A Books. I am not going to play that map because progression would be too easy, but if I did I'm fairly certain I could max out any skill I want in 1 day of running through as many Crack a Books as I can. Given the locations of those POIs that 1 day of mad looting could be very early in the game.

In my opinion there needs to be a max count for POIs like Crack A Book given how trivial they make the whole learn by reading system.

[Antearz]

Publicado originalmente por Pain Weasel:

Publicado originalmente por Keman:

Break down some cars, suddenly you have a tier 3 weapon before the first 7th day. Level 3 pump shotgun day 5 I think. Seems to keep happening.

Just to be clear,a Pump Shotgun is not T3, it is T2 ("gunShotgunT2PumpShotgun" in the XML). If you have an Auto Shotgun then yeah, that's T3.

Well Depends how You Count.

T1 is Pipe Shotgun.
T2 is Double Barrel
T3 is Pump
T4 is Auto.

The Game Counts from T0 instead.
But thats not what most of the Community does.
But thats not the Issue.

Publicado originalmente por Keman:

Publicado originalmente por Nerevar:

that sounds like youre playing a21 and not a22 tbh.

as traders dont sell high tier loot anymore at all and if they they have some of them available they are insanely expensive now. you no longer get them from the rewards like before.

in order to make better gear you should fokus your perks on what you actually wanna craft. that will raise that magazine type spawn odds by 200%. this does NOT raise the base spawn chance of any magazine. it just makes it like X times more likely to be a magazine for the stuff youve perked into. if you spread out your perks too much youll get all kinds of random ♥♥♥♥. fokus on 1 thing at a time.

note : tinkerer is a bad perk for actually getting workstations. use lockpicking instead for that.

note : armor magazine odds are raised by simply increaseing your chosen attribute more since everyone needs armor regardless of perks chosen. so these come naturally the higher your attribute gets.

1.0, current version. They do, just put a few points into the intellect stuff, and they began showing tier 3 regularly. Traders are far too strong, even in multiplayer. It's this simple, I play a harder mode for a reason, if that suddenly drastically increases loot quality, what is the point of the difficulty mode? It scales too fast, too strong. Loot quality and trader quality must be nerfed to achieve what they wanted. The trader value of some items need reduced as it's just too easy to spam money.

If your multiplayer games ends up with 1 or 2 builds completely overpowered and throwing the balance off, it is a problem. This is where we are at, perfect balance is impossible, people finding tier 3 items pre day 7 because of skills or money too easily obtained is a problem. One solution is making higher tier items significantly more expensive.

Uhm Mate.
No Offense. But Are You sure You play 1.0?
You say Current Version. But current Version is Alpha 21.
1.0 is Sheduled for Release on 25th July.
To Play 1.0 You need to Opt into an Experimental Beta Build.
Its NOT the Current version.

Because what You are Saying really Sounds like A21.

I took The Int Perks and even on Tier 3 Unlocked the Trader Rarely has Low Quality T3 Weapons. Not to mention they Cost insanely much. On Day 10 was the First Time I got offered a T3 Weapon and it was a Quality 2 SMG for 17k Dukes.
(And Pls note. T3 Unlock Requires a Total of 10 Tier 1 and 10 Tier 2 Missions. Even if You all Available Fetch Missions to get as many Quests as Possible. Its Difficult to do more than 3 a Day while still Looting and Gathering enough Ressources to Build and Survive. I got T3 Unlock on Day 8 Just after the First Horde)

[Keman]

Publicado originalmente por Antearz:

Uhm Mate.
No Offense. But Are You sure You play 1.0?

Yes, I meant I am playing the current version of 1.0, there was an update, remember? It says 1.0, it has new release things in it, I am certain I am playing 1.0. I'm starting to wonder if the issue isn't poor difficulty balance and multiplayer, since it seems most people in this community play easiest modes alone with unlimited inventory mods.

I am playing 1.0, multiplayer, on insane no mods. Tier 3 and 4 items are dropping and being offered at the trader for those with the intellect skills before the first 7th day.
Yes, I know harder difficulties can increase loot, but they shouldn't. The whole point of harder is to be harder, not get top tier equipment in the first 7 days. Loot is dropping way too easy, it's too easy to exploit the trader, and the trader is still way too powerful.

[Zanklev™]

Publicado originalmente por Nerevar:

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

My friend put points into daring adventurer and now we're getting insane high quality endgame items by day 5. It's absolutely insane and has made me, the dedicated crafter feel useless. Can't make any decent gear because of this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ magazine system so we just buy everything, I hate it, doesn't feel like you're accomplishing anything.

that sounds like youre playing a21 and not a22 tbh.

as traders dont sell high tier loot anymore at all and if they they have some of them available they are insanely expensive now. you no longer get them from the rewards like before.

in order to make better gear you should fokus your perks on what you actually wanna craft. that will raise that magazine type spawn odds by 200%. this does NOT raise the base spawn chance of any magazine. it just makes it like X times more likely to be a magazine for the stuff youve perked into. if you spread out your perks too much youll get all kinds of random ♥♥♥♥. fokus on 1 thing at a time.

note : tinkerer is a bad perk for actually getting workstations. use lockpicking instead for that.

note : armor magazine odds are raised by simply increaseing your chosen attribute more since everyone needs armor regardless of perks chosen. so these come naturally the higher your attribute gets.

We are playing A22, got all the new features. I'm not stupid in having no idea on how to enter experimental. Try it yourself, max daring adventurer first. You'll start getting sales for Assault Rifles, AK's and Steel tools. Just but putting a few perk points there. That's all you gotta do and now you're at end game gear completely skipping the whole game and what sense of progression there is. I tried it myself on a solo world and got the same results as he did in our shared world. This is on max difficulty not that it really affects store products.

[Zanklev™]

Publicado originalmente por Tengel:

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

My friend put points into daring adventurer and now we're getting insane high quality endgame items by day 5. It's absolutely insane and has made me, the dedicated crafter feel useless. Can't make any decent gear because of this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ magazine system so we just buy everything, I hate it, doesn't feel like you're accomplishing anything.

you can make your own rules - no one forces you to buy stuff - just cause he has it

if you dont like it -
try things like no quest/no buys
or quests yes / but no buys
etc.

is it ideal? no - but if you wanna "use" the crafting system - there are no much ways arround it


btw. one bigger problem in my eyes with their crafting system is - its just sooooooo anti multiplayer - since - if you quest with your buddy - the one looting impacts the magazine outcome a big time - so if you wanna see "your stuff" and he "his stuff" - you should do split up for questing and do it solo....what is clearly not the point of multiplayer

since 1.0 where - the crafting system is not good/ideal - but more important than in a21 - me and my mate argue on fresh world -what build WE play XD since we will play the same - its limitating - but we did not see/find away arround it

We shouldn't have to use some self imposed 'rules' while playing. The progression needs to be fixed, I'm not gonna open the store with end game gear and say "Oh ho ho, there is no gear here ha ha!". The traders are OP as hell, JUST by putting points into Daring Adventurer.

[Zanklev™]

Publicado originalmente por MoistGamer:

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

My friend put points into daring adventurer and now we're getting insane high quality endgame items by day 5. It's absolutely insane and has made me, the dedicated crafter feel useless. Can't make any decent gear because of this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ magazine system so we just buy everything, I hate it, doesn't feel like you're accomplishing anything.

We've increased the price because we feel its worth it.

What do you mean you increased the price?

[Bakudan]

Depends on how you play i guess, i'm crafting level 2 armors and lv2 Iron Sledghammer and so far the best levels gear drop i've found are level 1 armors only and lv2-3 Basic sledgehammer in comparison.

So craft is going well i think, also crafted the bicycle 30min before the trader would give me one for free, this one feels a bit... bad

[The Undead Watcher]

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

We shouldn't have to use some self imposed 'rules' while playing.

You will have to if you want it to be hard.

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

The progression needs to be fixed, I'm not gonna open the store with end game gear and say "Oh ho ho, there is no gear here ha ha!". The traders are OP as hell, JUST by putting points into Daring Adventurer.

You do realize that Daring Adventurer does increase the rewards and the stock offered by the traders.
Invest in Trader Perks, get better traders, SHOCKER i know!!

I don't have invested in these Perks in i don't get these Items offered. The best i have seen was a Level 4 Wrench on Day 5. Everything else are stone tools at best (which i already made better ones).

[Antearz]

Publicado originalmente por Keman:

Publicado originalmente por Antearz:

Uhm Mate.
No Offense. But Are You sure You play 1.0?

Yes, I meant I am playing the current version of 1.0, there was an update, remember? It says 1.0, it has new release things in it, I am certain I am playing 1.0. I'm starting to wonder if the issue isn't poor difficulty balance and multiplayer, since it seems most people in this community play easiest modes alone with unlimited inventory mods.

I am playing 1.0, multiplayer, on insane no mods. Tier 3 and 4 items are dropping and being offered at the trader for those with the intellect skills before the first 7th day.
Yes, I know harder difficulties can increase loot, but they shouldn't. The whole point of harder is to be harder, not get top tier equipment in the first 7 days. Loot is dropping way too easy, it's too easy to exploit the trader, and the trader is still way too powerful.

Then Mind Sharing how many People You are Playing with and What Gamestages You guys are on ?

[Hunter69]

stop nerfing - upgrade a zombies !!! upgrade a gameplay !!! there're allready a tons of nerfs... It should'nt be a freaking grind simulator !!!

[Antearz]

Publicado originalmente por Hunter69:

stop nerfing - upgrade a zombies !!! upgrade a gameplay !!! there're allready a tons of nerfs... It should'nt be a freaking grind simulator !!!

Generally I think the Difficulty Settings are one of the things Lacking.

There Should be a Setting that massively Increases Zombie Spawns.
It would be much better if especially outside there was far more wandering Zeds in Cities.
And far more Zeds in a Wandering Horde etc.

[Antearz]

Publicado originalmente por Zanklev™:

Publicado originalmente por Tengel:

you can make your own rules - no one forces you to buy stuff - just cause he has it

if you dont like it -
try things like no quest/no buys
or quests yes / but no buys
etc.

is it ideal? no - but if you wanna "use" the crafting system - there are no much ways arround it


btw. one bigger problem in my eyes with their crafting system is - its just sooooooo anti multiplayer - since - if you quest with your buddy - the one looting impacts the magazine outcome a big time - so if you wanna see "your stuff" and he "his stuff" - you should do split up for questing and do it solo....what is clearly not the point of multiplayer

since 1.0 where - the crafting system is not good/ideal - but more important than in a21 - me and my mate argue on fresh world -what build WE play XD since we will play the same - its limitating - but we did not see/find away arround it

We shouldn't have to use some self imposed 'rules' while playing. The progression needs to be fixed, I'm not gonna open the store with end game gear and say "Oh ho ho, there is no gear here ha ha!". The traders are OP as hell, JUST by putting points into Daring Adventurer.

As I said. How many Players are You even Playing with.

Because as I said. I got Points in Daring Adventurer. And he did not offer me T3 Weapons until Day 10.
Heck. On Day 7 he Offered me a Quality 1 Normal Pistol.

[Pain Weasel]

Publicado originalmente por Antearz:

Because as I said. I got Points in Daring Adventurer. And he did not offer me T3 Weapons until Day 10.
Heck. On Day 7 he Offered me a Quality 1 Normal Pistol.

It depends on how many points you have in DA, what your level is and how many quest tiers you have completed.

Traderstage determines what inventory they have and the calculation is this:
(player_level * (1 + quest_tier_mod)) + (daring adventurer * 10)

The quest tier mod ranges from 0 (haven't completed tier 1) to 0.3 after completing tier 6.

There is also a min/max range for low tier items, but higher tier items have no upper range.

here are the values for tools & weapons. Ignore the fallback lines.

Tier 1:
<traderstage_template name="baseTier1"> <!-- Iron Tools|T1 Weapons|T1 Explosives -->
<entry min="1" max="999999" quality="0"/> <!-- Fallback for items without quality -->
<entry min="15" max="40" quality="1"/>
<entry min="30" max="50" quality="2"/>
<entry min="40" max="60" quality="3"/>
<entry min="50" max="70" quality="4"/>
<entry min="60" max="70" quality="5"/>
</traderstage_template>

Tier 2:
<traderstage_template name="baseTier2"> <!-- Steel Tools|T2 Weapons|T2 Explosives -->
<entry min="1" max="999999" quality="0"/> <!-- Fallback for items without quality -->
<entry min="50" max="999999" quality="1"/>
<entry min="50" max="999999" quality="2"/>
<entry min="50" max="999999" quality="3"/>
<entry min="50" max="999999" quality="4"/>
<entry min="50" max="999999" quality="5"/>
</traderstage_template>

Tier 3:
<traderstage_template name="baseTier3"> <!-- Mech Tools|T3 Weapons -->
<entry min="1" max="999999" quality="0"/> <!-- Fallback for items without quality -->
<entry min="100" max="999999" quality="1"/>
<entry min="100" max="999999" quality="2"/>
<entry min="100" max="999999" quality="3"/>
<entry min="100" max="999999" quality="4"/>
<entry min="100" max="999999" quality="5"/>
</traderstage_template>

Where it gets tricky is that there is no max to the range a trader will sell T2 or T3 weapons/tools. That means even with a traderstage of 300 you may still see a T2 weapon instead of a T3, but you will never see a T3 until you have at least 100 traderstage.

You say on Day 7 the trader was offering a Q1 Pistol. That is a "baseTier1" weapon in the XML, so your traderstage was between 15 and 40. I'm guessing you had 1 or 2 levels of Daring Adventurer at that point, we maybe level 15-ish and completed tier 1.

To hit Tier 3 (Desert Vulture) you would need to have Daring Adventurer 4 and be around level 50 with at least tier 4 completed, and even then you may still only see a T2 because of the open ended max range.