A21 Dukes/Trader Economy is bad

[Nihiladrem]

Starting on about day 9, I started buying out the traders magazine stock because I didn't really have anything else to spend money on. Before long I'm hitting multiple traders each stock reset and I'm still rolling in Dukes, if I see anything I could possibly use I buy it. Military fiber, traps (not using them yet), whatever.

But most of the time their stock is really, really bad.

I'm jamming through missions on Warrior difficulty, and the rewards are good enough that except for a few rare cases they are far outpacing anything I can buy or craft. Now on day 33, I have most of the crafting perks maxed or near to it (for the ones I care about). I've got a motorcycle and gyro, multiple storage boxes FULL of ammo, and 140k Dukes I have nothing to spend on.

I feel like the traders need a few higher tier items each reset (above your lootstage) to give people stuff to spend their Dukes on. Hell they could even price them 3-4x their normal value and I would have bought them simply because I always, always had way more Dukes then I could spend.

[NHLreturns]

we are slaves to the machine

the trader dictates our destiny, we must rebel against the system

we must choose our goals instead of being given them, dont tell me i need to do a quest today i will chop wood ! DOWN WITH THE TRADER, down with THE DUKE !

[esthergray]

NHL12 lähetti viestin:

the trader dictates our destiny, we must rebel against the system

we must choose our goals instead of being given them, dont tell me i need to do a quest today i will chop wood ! DOWN WITH THE TRADER, down with THE DUKE !

lol

[Sr Humungus]

Dont chop wood, farm stone, learn how to stack them, rent a vendor machine in the trade vendor for 30 days, (the one placed not the one the tyrant sells), put stacks of 5 there with a pair of engines and wait until all stacks sell, around 300k dukes will be waiting for you when this happens.

But, hey, why you want to store dukes? better drop them until despawn and live like a tribal in your cave with your lovely stone spear and raw meat, and let others eat chocolate cake with our machineguns full of ammo.

[Darren]

lool, okay!

[Aytest]

trader shouldn't be the most effective way to progress ingame, too boring sometimes, makes the game feel more like rpg than survival.

[Ragequit Inc.]

We ALL have the option to not listen to the traitor. The choice is yours.

[GinsengSamurai]

I am not a fan of the trader mechanic. It feels too much of a focal point, rather than a secondary point.

For example, in the Fallout series, you're the hero-to-be, but you're still an ant compared to the vastness of the wastelands. There are things that happen regardless whether you're out there being a champion or anti-hero. If you meet traders along the way, great. If not, you'll run into many opportunities for loot. You survive by becoming better than when you started. If not, you'll die. At the end of the day, as time goes on, your path becomes clearer and your destiny awaits in a series of possible endings. However, the world is fulfilling. It's alive. It's mysterious, violent, and sombre.

In 7DTD, despite the fact there is no solid ending and it is meant to be an open world survival game, the game doesn't make me feel like anything. The world isn't mysterious, it's not alive with happenings, it's just there. You just exist. Traders try to progress you, but they are made like an afterthought. I have built a lovely base in the pine forest. I can fight off anything and everything. What next? Oh, I have to go to the desert biome and start again? Build another base? Then the snow, then the wasteland? And then what? I quit, install a mod, and start again?

It got boring after awhile. Just last night, as I was trying to fall asleep, I said to my wife, "I'm doing everything I can to make 7DTD play better, but don't you feel it's utterly boring no matter what we try to do?" No matter the overhaul mod, which adds a lot of flavour, at the end of the day, 7DTD in my opinion is a great survival open world crafting game for modern times, BUT there really isn't much to compare it to. So ultimately, it's just a game I play because there are rarely any better survival zombie-esque games out there.

[CatPerson]

I haven't liked the Traders since they were introduced, even when the quests weren't yet a huge focus. I immediately noticed the change in the way people played the game after that. That was way back when I was actually playing (very occasionally) with some 'net acquaintances and watched a lot of Twitch streams. Their game method focus changed a lot and not in a way I liked to play.

That said, I don't care if they or their quests exist, as long as I can still function without them - even if I have to do some mod edits for some personal preferences. :P

[Mithrandir]

Don't want traders ? Don't use them. Simple. Tougher game, but tougher is good.

[Jonnson]

Pain Weasel lähetti viestin:

Snipped

So, I said I'd do the miner build in a21 and get back to yas, so this is me getting back to yas, heh.

First off, in A19/20 you could start this build right after spawn, as you were able to put points into adv eng and then make the things you needed. For this reason you were able to obtain level 60+ by the morning of day 8, the finishing touches after the BM.

It's definitely been nerfed in A21. I had to spend the first 2 days running missions in order to get just the basic things I needed in order to make it work (food/water/q5 stone axe) I didn't get a hammer, or any mods for the ax. I got a pair of int glasses on day 4 reset. (Edit: No cement mixers was truly painful).

The magazines are a total nerf on survivalist players (people avoiding the cities). I didn't realize the extent of it until I did this strategy.

That being said, its still superior to an INT/DA rush build. IF your goal is to obtain the highest trader stage possible, asap.

I was able to obtain level 45 by morning of day 8.

Now, I also did the Int/DA rush and I did it the way you said, as well as doing it with more heavy mining at night. Truly, you just need perfect RNG in order to get some levels via buying supplies and rewards (cobblestone/wood/concrete mix). It is better to mine/lumberjack at night. The difference here is level 15 or level 20 by morning of day 8, roughly. The same would apply to the miner build, with better RNG and a little more efficiency, I could have hit level 50. Also, I unlocked t3 by day 3 normally, and then unlocked t4 by the end of the week via buried supplies.

So, if the information I have is correct then we are talking player level X trader mission tier + DA rank X 10.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, an Int/Da rusher would be around level 20, on average and have t5 missions unlocked. The miner would be level 50 with t4 missions unlocked.

Thats,
Int/DA being 20x5+40=140 trader stage.
vs.
Miner being 50x4=200 trader stage.

Lets say you got level 25, and he got level 40, then;
25x5+40=165
40x4=160

Also, the miner has a base loot stage of 50, vs the Int/DA having a base 20, and the miner has about 30 additional skill points to spend on various things, as well as about 15-20% more health and stamina, whereas the Int/Da has an additional reward.

Now, my objective here isn't to say a miner is OP, or ideal, or better, or anything of the sort. It is simply one strategy, or build, or play style used to illustrate that Daring Adventure is not OP, and an Int/Da build is in no way superior to other builds.

Also, I wanna point out that the super corn farm sounds good until you think about it. First, you are relying on a game exploit by being able to rebuy what you sold and resell it over and over. This will be fixed eventually. That being said, you have to obtain the cigar, magnum, cheesecake, sugarbutts etc. You also need to gather alot of roadkill to make enough farm space to get 375 supercorn, and everyday to really hit numbers that are noticeable. Not to mention the supercorn recipe. As far as money is concerned, this is just another path to infinite money, that sits in your chests, unspent...which means its worthless. There are other routes that are more fun to play, and that provide a more balanced character. It dont matter if you have 500k dukes when the best thing for sale is a q3 knife. As far as experience goes, taking the time to get all set up, and then sit there and buy and sell over and over again is a game within itself that only a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ would bother to do. This guy isn't even playing the game. Spending hours of his time to level up and get money he cant spend is just ...meh. If I saw my little brother sitting there doing that, I'd unplug his computer and hand him a bottle of baby oil.

I do agree that this needs to be fixed, but I would have to say that these highly invested game exploits would be low priority, as only someone bored and less bright than a dim bulb would waste his time doing this when he could get equivalent gains just playing the game, normally. I mean, the forgetting elixir being available at all times, at such a low cost, is not a problem, its intentional. It's to allow players to experiment with the perks, while the game sits in alpha development. Obviously they will raise its price, or limit its availability, or both, and more, when the game releases. And lets not forget that dukes are brass, and the intention is to melt them down for bullet casings. You DO want to get to a point where that is their value.

These are NOT the problems with the game economy. These are niche exploits done by idiots, spinning their wheels while bored. It's the content of a youtube video, at best.

[Pain Weasel]

Thanks for the update Jonnson.

I did start a STR game with heavy mining after our discussion and I'm having a good time so far. I also didn't get punished as badly for some bad RNG luck either which is nice.

I had this whole big post, but I deleted it. I think my opinion on DA comes down to these two points:

1) Every other method for increasing traderstage also comes with an increase to gamestage. DA does not.

It may not be the fastest way to get a high traderstage, but it is the only way that doesn't also increase gamestage & lootstage simultaneously. That results in better gear, without the increase in difficulty that comes from a higher gamestage.

2) Other skills like Lucky Looter give bonuses based on a percentage, while DA is a flat increase.

This means DA can have a large impact at very low levels, while other skills only achieve the same level of bonus at much higher levels (with the gamestage to match). DA can grant a +40 to trader stage at level 16. LL only reaches a +40 lootstage bonus at around level 160, because it is a percentage increase and lootstage is based on level. It takes 154 more levels which comes with at least 10 times the gamestage (without factoring in days survived) to hit the same amount of bonus DA gives. At the same level (16-ish) that DA can give +40 traderstage, LL5 can only give a +4 lootstage bonus.

Those 2 things combined, at least in my opinion, make Daring Adventurer unbalanced.
Particularly at low levels.

As for the Super Corn, yeah that's just an example of how off it is. I actually decreased the EconomicValue of Super Corn in my XML so make it a bit more balanced. 50 instead of 200. There are a lot of ways to exploit the game, including the economy. Pretty much every aspect needs a lot of balancing.

That being said, it is alpha so balance comes later. Hopefully.

[Kryzx]

Jonnson lähetti viestin:

So, if the information I have is correct then we are talking player level X trader mission tier + DA rank X 10.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, an Int/Da rusher would be around level 20, on average and have t5 missions unlocked. The miner would be level 50 with t4 missions unlocked.

Thats,
Int/DA being 20x5+40=140 trader stage.
vs.
Miner being 50x4=200 trader stage.

Lets say you got level 25, and he got level 40, then;
25x5+40=165
40x4=160

It is not correct. Traderstage formula is:

(Player level + (DA level * 10)) * (1 + (Trader Quest Tier Completion * 0.05))
(Player level * (1 + (Trader Quest Tier Completion * 0.05)) + (DA level * 10)
thx for correcting me @Pain Weasel

"Trader Quest Tier Completion" is just how high you've gotten your quest tier rewards with said trader.

Basically:
Just visiting the trader and haven't done any quests with them? +0% to traderstage (minimum)
You finished the T1 completion reward and got the bicycle? +5% to traderstage
You got the T6 completion reward? +30% to traderstage (maximum)

Int/DA 1st example: (20 * 1.25) + 40 = 65 traderstage
Miner 1st example: (50 * 1.20) = 60 traderstage

Int/DA 2nd example: (25 * 1.25) + 40 = ~71 traderstage
Miner 2nd example: (40 * 1.20) = 48 traderstage

[ジプシーボーイ]

+

[Pain Weasel]

Are you 100% sure of that calculation Kryzx?

Everything I can find on the subject has it a bit different, but those sources could be wrong I guess.

Player level * (1 + quest_tier_mod) + (DA level * 10)
vs
(Player level + (DA level * 10)) * (1 + quest_tier_mod)

with the quest_tier_mod value coming from traders.xml

the only real difference being whether DA is also modified by quest tier. If it is, then it is even more unbalanced than I thought.

[Jonnson]

Pain Weasel lähetti viestin:

Thanks for the update Jonnson.

I did start a STR game with heavy mining after our discussion and I'm having a good time so far. I also didn't get punished as badly for some bad RNG luck either which is nice.

I had this whole big post, but I deleted it. I think my opinion on DA comes down to these two points:

1) Every other method for increasing traderstage also comes with an increase to gamestage. DA does not.

It may not be the fastest way to get a high traderstage, but it is the only way that doesn't also increase gamestage & lootstage simultaneously. That results in better gear, without the increase in difficulty that comes from a higher gamestage.

2) Other skills like Lucky Looter give bonuses based on a percentage, while DA is a flat increase.

This means DA can have a large impact at very low levels, while other skills only achieve the same level of bonus at much higher levels (with the gamestage to match). DA can grant a +40 to trader stage at level 16. LL only reaches a +40 lootstage bonus at around level 160, because it is a percentage increase and lootstage is based on level. It takes 154 more levels which comes with at least 10 times the gamestage (without factoring in days survived) to hit the same amount of bonus DA gives. At the same level (16-ish) that DA can give +40 traderstage, LL5 can only give a +4 lootstage bonus.

Those 2 things combined, at least in my opinion, make Daring Adventurer unbalanced.
Particularly at low levels.

As for the Super Corn, yeah that's just an example of how off it is. I actually decreased the EconomicValue of Super Corn in my XML so make it a bit more balanced. 50 instead of 200. There are a lot of ways to exploit the game, including the economy. Pretty much every aspect needs a lot of balancing.

That being said, it is alpha so balance comes later. Hopefully.

Yea, its a good point about game stage, but remember the miner is much stronger with perks, health, and stamina. In contrast, an int/da can find himself struggling to do t5's with little in regards to perk bonuses. We can do this naked, but we are vets, yaknow what I mean?

I'm not sure about the trader stage calculation, after seeing Kryzx's post. But even then, the average levels are leading to roughly the same stage; one player with bad rng and another with good rng is where the difference comes out, and thats rng, not the strategy. And even in that case, the miner is much more powerful, overall. The other points still stand, and so I can't say that DA becomes OP, using that calculation. Different, but not OP.

I'm trying a magazine scavenger build now, based on that last game I played. I have the auger unlocked on day 4. I'm 5 mags away from the cement mixer, but the chemistry station is presenting a problem as I cant mass produce gas in order to utilize the auger. I messed up though and put points into engineer, the 4 books it unlocks crippled the focus, but I didn't want to choose lock picking, sigh. I don't understand why lock picking would lead to building crafting stations faster than engineering. That seems "forced." I'm gonna delete that game and try again, this time with lock picking. It should work, and with an auger in play, one should be able to build and upgrade a massive base in a very short time, for mad exp. My thought is to be equivalent in level to the miner build, by day 8. The auger will also produce thousands of rounds.

Whats cool about this scavenger strat is that I have all traders discovered, and thus the towns, and so choosing a base location more central to their locations on the map will save alot of travel time, later, as opposed to just building roughly where you spawned. Also, you don't just get your mags, you get a ton of books. Many of those books are equivalent to perks. And being able to run a circuit through 5-7 traders on reset day, does have its benefits.

It entails mailbox and car looting at night though, so i'd say its for more advanced players. I almost got killed myself running around in the desert at night, soooo many ferals. My ferals are nightmare speed though. I'll keep away from the waste for now, heh.

Edit; Its do 5 missions day 1, then 7 missions every day, thereafter. T1 missions to unlock the special mission, then off to that town, do his t1 and then off to the next town, and so on. At night loot all the mailboxes and cars, and do the crak a books. Save all money to buy mags, and check all the traders on reset days. I'm actually level 20 on day 6 doing that, which isnt bad, considering. I do fight alot of zombies while running around. Its not boring, as I thought it would be, at night.

Also, I have been selecting the 2 filters as end rewards, so thats 12 dew collectors when I build base. The bike was the first reward.