State of the Games progression

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

This has been an ongoing thing in 7days to die where they have been making it more and more long to progress through the game. I'm not gonna say difficult, because it isn't. Just longer. Which doesn't mean difficult. It typically makes the game play feel tedious. Before if you ground(which I don't mind grinding btw) for resources you where accomplishing things, heck back in the day when it was the superior level as you do system. You where even improving your use of tools(all you needed to do was taper the xp back and add perks TFP, but no you tore this superior system down, only to be constantly trying to re-build it). Now as someone here said we are back to level as you do, just level as you loot books, books and more books. Finding books use to be a joy, because it meant certain things you could do now. Now every time I loot books I roll my eyes. I'm on day 8, I can finally craft a forge and a subsequent grill, but oh well. In order to effectively take a piece of meat, throw it on that grill and wait for it to cook and flip it every so often(something pretty much everyone knows the basics of). I need to be able to read (SIX!) books before I can do this. This is silly. To re-iterate. I don't mind grinding and for the reasons I explained. I don't see what you do as meaningful grinding, because it just feels like everything is a way to slow my progress. And what's even worse you have to play the way TFP wants you too(which I see no purpose in the complex perk trees) if TFP rail-road you into playing one way anyway. I really feel there needs to be brought back into the game a sense of accomplishing things and a more rewarding progression system. This book system isn't that. It hurts that if anything. To expand on what I mean about the perk trees and railroading the way you play. Take this example. What's the point of me living out in the wilderness like a ranger and utilizing the fortitude tree and its perks if the game is going to force me into towns and interacting with the trader more than I want to. And looting all the POIs. What if I want to just "live off the land" it isn't a really viable option(it kinda used to be btw) Until TFP decided they wanted to take the freedom of how players played and decided they wanted to pigeon hole them into one mode. I still quite enjoy the game for many of the good things they've added. POIs feeling all very unique. Although if you told me back in A15-16 what if we took the sleeper zombies and made that basically the primary way outside of horde night you interact with zombies. Kinda lame as alot of the fun was/is engaging with zombies out shambling about(which still happens its just very reduced). That being said much of the 7days DNA is still in this game, which is why I still come back now and again, but it's far from the fun open game it used to be.

[Hugo the Dwarf]

This comment is towards just the new book to skill up craft system. I don't think it's bad, but it's annoying in this iteration. If they had the books supporting the do to skill, I think it'd fit rather well. Since then books would be that nice push near the mid to late portions of a skill to get it over the hump.

suggestion would be:
You can craft low level basic stuff, doing so nets XP (like before) where as if you char enough meat, you'll skill up enough to grill it instead, and ergo, more you do, the more you learn. But as most level/xp systems work, every level past 1 requires more XP, and this is where those books would come in. And as you mentioned it'd bring back that joy of "yes I found a book" because it would speed up later progression by just giving you a free point boost in that given crafting level.

This is comment is towards the farming. I've noticed they've recently since A19?? made it harder to farm, and now with the removal of glass jars (which I'm mixed on) it's not possible to bottle your own water (unless dew collector + looting)

Before it was possible to establish your own way of self sufficiency and live the good life out in the wilderness in your own fortress. Now you're pushed to always be lootin' Which isn't a bad thing, but they essentially killed a play-style which I have to re-mod in.

I remember harvesting plants would give you a seed back and maybe a second seed, then I remember harvesting a plant would give a chance for a seed but revert to stage 1 (planted) and it'd grow up again unless tore out from the roots. Now it seems like a 50/50 chance to get a seed back, and a handful of harvest, which generally it takes 5 of a plant to make a seed. So generally your farming yield can't keep up with demand (replanting, and left overs for cooking)

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

I have no issues with books either, but. Just imagine playing Skyrim or any rpg really and the only way you can level your primary ability skills is by going around and finding books to read, that would be tedious and boring. Should skill books be a part of the level system or even crafting recipes system. Of course, but not like this. Like I said past iterations of book implementations where just fine. They where supplementary. Key word there, but now they've decided to make them such a part of the level system that it's one of the primary things you find in loot. Loot isn't even as exciting anymore, because you are probably just gonna find books. Aside from the scrapper type loot you'll need for crafting/building. That's all fine and never been better in my opinion. All the stuff you can scrap and take to get the resources out of is great and better than ever. But the main loot at the end of poi's. It's books now. Not that you cant find good gear, that's not my point. It's just bizarre how dominating they've decided to make the books. And all of this is likely an irrelevant conversation, because the devs will likely change it again in a year or so, which is another problem entirely, but hey o'.

Maybe I should just focus on what I like about 7days, because I don't think people like myself. Being critical of the issues. Are being listened to by the devs. Certainly in the Youtube creator world, creators won't be critical of games they play anymore, because the game is likely there bread and butter. And now the economy is, I'm not gonna say a critical word of a game or the devs might not like me anymore. But that's more a broader industry issue than just with 7days.

They've absolutely pigeon holed farming. There used to be this thing called a "hoe" in the game, you could till the dirt to grow things. Imagine that! Again you start to see why old guards like myself who have been playing since A15 take issues with the direction of this game. We used to be able to till the ground, we can't do that anymore. Why? Every question has the same answer. The devs didn't like the players doing that, so instead of improving it. They removed it entirely.

And nobody is listening to us, certainly not the devs when we say these devs don't like there player base, because every time we find a way we like to play the game, the devs decide to change their ENTIRE game to remove that way of playing. They've been doing it for years. This games inspiration was MINECRAFT. A game about player freedom and imagination. The game now is. Play the game the way we(the devs) want you to play it.

The sad thing is. There are many good additions to the game that have come over the years, but sadly those changes have come with devs completely changing the way you play the game and it's typically only one way you play. And when you get used to that new way of playing. Bye bye in the next alpha we've changed it again. It's down right annoying. Blunderbuss, where'd they go? Well devs didn't like em I guess. Even though we did, that doesn't matter. Lets add new pipe weapons that you craft with scrap, which is neat, but the model looks like you machined the parts even though they should be cobbled together. Oh, spear throwing, well that made killing zombies too easy(guess what so does shooting them with a bow) are you gonna remove that too? lol. Spear throwing gone. Imagine a survival game wear you can't throw a spear, just think about that for a little bit. Or as you say, imagine a survival game, where you can't re-use containers. That's 7daystodie. A game that has well and truly forgotten it's roots as a minecraft inspired game. A game whose whole philosophy is player freedom of creativity and expression. And a game(minecraft) that has made significant good additions to the game without destroying that core philosophy or the core game.

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

I use to say that 7DTD was adult minecraft. Which is still true to a degree. But when I think about this game and that games roots. One has stayed true the other has strayed. Imagine if minecraft removed farming lol or made it so you couldn't make those mob traps, because it was seen as exploitative as opposed to gamers just being down right a smart, creative bunch. That comes with not being able to fool us though xD

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

Sorry for going on, but the final thing I'll say that's sad. A core of the community even youtubers don't get it. They see it as. Your just upset they changed it in a way you don't like or they try to take the criticism and minimize it. And talk dismissively about it. Do you know why people say every alpha they aren't going onto the next one? Because of all of this and more I've been talking about. I recently heard a creator talk mockingly of those who say they don't want to go onto the next alpha. All this is why ^ Just wait they will remove something from the game you used to enjoy doing and it will only keep happening. And you will be the one saying you don't want to move on to alpha 22, 23, 24 ect. So while yes there is an aspect of being dissatisfied about something you enjoyed being removed. There is more to it than that.

[RazerEdge]

I have been playing A21 and yes, I agree that the book system is needlessly tedious. I was thinking about a possibility that others may like (or not, its just one thought). Keep the books, revert to the LBD system. But now, change the books from "free points" to a targeted crafting XP buff for a short period of time. Say, you get the tool book, then hunker down at night to increase your tool crafting. Pop the book and it adds X% of XP for X minutes. This would make the books useful and necessary to collect, while bringing back the LBD system everyone enjoys.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by RazerEdge:

... while bringing back the LBD system everyone enjoys.

Everyone ... are you sure about that ?

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

Many people enjoy. Like alot, Im sorry if you don't. But, frankly I wouldn't care what everyone thinks anyway. LBD makes sense, it's immersive, because that's kinda how it works in real life. The more you use or do something the better you get at it. As I said it also meant when you are out gathering resources, you aren't just getting more materials you are also advancing your character. You should even be leveling your strength which aught to provide other benefits beyond just better resource gathering if your using associated tools tied to strength like the woodcutting axe/ pick axe. But it would apply to all skills and tools and weapons. I mean skyrim, aside from the lack luster perk trees did it mostly right. Skill books to help push things along, and perks to spec into for when you advance that skill. Im not saying they have to do it exactly the way skyrim did it. If anything they should do it better than they did it. And you can certainly still have perks and skill books as much of those as you want and have them do whatever you want. Though I think stuff like, shoot zombs in legs makes them move slower(you shouldn't need to read a book to be able to do that, it should just happen naturally) when you shoot a zombie in the leg or a chance of it happening.

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

And it's funny I would be interested to hear the issues with LBD, because I see it as an improvement to the game in every way to what we have now. The only reason from what I understand they changed it back in the day was. They didn't like players getting to level 600 stone tools on day 1. Which I understand, but instead of tweaking things. They gutted it entirely and here we are. They keep re-imagining what they got right before. They just needed to add perks and books and tweak the gain. And it would have been fine.

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

Also for those who like killing zombies to gain xp. I don't see why you couldn't do a hybrid system that would satisfy everyone. Make it so if you kill a zombie with a bow, you get extra exp into your bows or something like that

[Hugo the Dwarf]

Devils Advocate, since sometimes I do enjoy LBD systems, they are not perfect. They do make sense but also not perfect either, Which is why my suggestion was skill books stay in to help boost/support the system. LBD as you mentioned Skyrim, the only way to get better at light/heavy armor is to get hit. And a zombie game generally getting hit is bad, so how do you get better with armor if you're avoiding as much damage as possible?

Of course Armor example there are some possible fixes, A) remove armor skills all together, and instead tie debuffs/adaption to attributes (more strength reduces Heavy armor mobility debuff, more Fortitude reduces stamina drain using armor, Agility reduces noise made wearing armor, etc)
B) Armor related XP is gained passively depending on tasks, running/walking is the lowest, fighting gives a bit more, etc

LBD isn't a bad system, depending on the game, and its goals. Project Zomboid has a LBD, but you really, really don't want to get hit by zombies least you get infected and have to start over. But the skills in PZ never involve you with taking damage to learn.

I think with 7dtd LBD still has some merit, even if it caps at a given level, and then you need books. There is a lot someone can self teach themselves, but at a given point one will stagnate unless they get tips/ideas from someone else (reading, mentor, etc) And to be optimistic since I've been through a lot of the massive restructures TFP have done to the game, I wouldn't be surpised if the crafting skill book and crafting skills in general won't get reworked again to be Perks + Proficiency Skills (LBD + books). Where say to get better at hand2hand you need to fight, but also brawler perks will give you an extra edge. So a level 100 h2h compared to another level 100 h2h + brawler perks + bar fighting book perks, the latter would be far better by a wide margin.

This would make builds meaningful, without people just suddenly becoming a master of all just because they grinded all the skills. (of course doesn't mean you can't grind enough levels to get all the perks, but the concept still stands)

So even tho TFP did change out LBD I'm not wholly upset about it, I remember it, but I also remember it wasn't that great. Sure with friends you can still divvy up the tasks, but it was also lacking in some aspects. And I wouldn't say it was "easy" or "hard" but it def felt experimental, just like the current state of the game.

I hope they land on something that's a happy medium, or even better system all together. That doesn't feel grindy (hunting down the right books, pray to RNG loot) and also feels reasonable (sure makes sense that reading a book would tell you how to better cut down a tree, combined with your own muscle memory)

[Senatus Populusque Romanus]

I think it's dumb to have an armor skill personally. Aside from crafting skill. That's how you improve your armor. It takes NO skill to wear armor. You put it on and it's effectiveness is based on how well it was made. So I would likely not have that kind of skill. Everything to do with armor really should be tied to crafting it. Want better armor or armor with different abilities ect. Either craft it, find it or get it from someone who can make it. I would just like a system that allows for player creativity and experimentation as opposed to forcing players down a specific root. Which is why I'm not fond of what you loot being based on skills you've allocated out. I mean seriously. You go to a hardware store and you loot things from a hardware store. That you would typically find there. They had this figured out alphas ago. Oh no! I need to make medical supplies but I don't know how. Maybe that library/pharmacy ect. Will have a book I can read to learn about it. It really is that simple. I need guns or I need to learn how to make ammo or whatever, maybe that gun store will have the answers in books. I think maybe it's born from this idea they have that everything needs to be tied to the level system and I don't get it. It's restrictive.

Again much of the things they are fumbling around with now they had once figured out and working. Like the system they had in A15 for example was just the basic LBD system it was not fancy or expanded upon. Which was all it needed. It didn't need torn down it just need expanding upon/tweaking as I've said with books or perks however you want to do it. My gripe is not the presence of perks/books/ or even gaining exp from killing to invest into your character. It's a combination of how they keep trying to integrate these systems into the games progression, when I think things where fine alphas past. All that was needed was some building upon the systems past. Instead we keep trying to re-build from the ground up a new system that feels way less fun than before. It should be divided like this Books- Books for learning certain recipes, special skills or advancing your basic skills Skills- Tool using/ Fist Fighting ect. You do those things to improve those things. You than have Perks tied to each of the skills you invest to make them better than normal. So for those who like the way you level now. You have a level and than all your skills have subsequent levels that only level as you use them. Where as completing quests and killing zombies awards you overall exp which grants you perk points you can allocate into perks. Like honestly I don't see why they can't design a game without using perks. But that is a whole other discussion. Perks should feel meaningful and usually they boil down to bland increases in damage ect. Which was kind of skyrim's issue in some ways. If I had to simplify my desires.

A good fleshed out perk tree with meaningful perks, level skills as you do them, supplemented by skill books or special ability books and recipe books for crafting, devs that don't remove things from the game just because they don't like it without considering how the players feel, interesting quests(which is not what we have now btw keep the radiant quests but add interesting story ones), Players are encouraged to play how they want to play and not pigeon holed into playing one type of way. Go loot poi do same quest turn in, rince repeat.

[Hogman]

Collecting books is not tedious, but reading that wall of text is.

[Darren]

You dont have to read this wall, but collect books for progression lol. Both is i think.

[onanonehand8]

Call me lazy, if I am going to read more than a 1000 words about any topic it will be something much more substantive than a video game.

If it takes more than 250 words to describe a game problem, the problem isn't the game.

[kandar]

Originally posted by onanonehand8:

If it takes more than 250 words to describe a game problem, the problem isn't the game.

It cuts both ways. If it takes more than 250 words to defend a game, then the problem is the game.

No matter what side you fall on, a wall of text isn't needed to describe a game with so little content.