A Return to Learn By Doing

[Cujo]

I think that the skill magazines would work a lot better if there weren't so many different trees for you to collect.

Towards that end, I like the idea of a return to a "learn by doing" hybrid. You gain weapon mastery by using that specific type of weapon to kill zombies. As you gain weapon mastery, you unlock things that are currently used as perks. Instead of faster reload being a perk, why isn't it a reward for becoming more familiar with your weaponry? It feels more natural that you'd increase in confidence, accuracy, and speed with a chosen weapon over tens or even hundreds of kills.

The advantages of this system would be to clear out a large amount of "dead wood" from the perk tree - perks that provide nothing more than flat boosts to weapons that currently suck up a lot of valuable skill points of levels. If you want to play with pistols, you'd be stupid not to take a skill that specifically enhances them. That's 5 levels of skills you "have" to take at some point in the game. You can put it off if there are more pressing concerns like stamina usage or lucky loot, but eventually you gotta sink those 5 levels worth of points to get the most out of your chosen weapon.

The removal of these point vacuum perks would allow new perks to be added to the tree without fear of overloading the player with vital perks or would effectively create a faster game progression. Either outcome could be tailored by the developers. For example, if no new perks were added and the old ones removed, the game would naturally progress faster as you would allocate those weapon skill points into other perks. However, if the devs wanted to keep the game’s pace overall slower, they could replace the weapon mastery perks with new perks that could "eat" those points back up again, resulting in a neutral balance in game speed but a greater overall sense of progression from weapon mastery’s addition.

In the current system, the theoretical addition of new skills means that they must be
- So niche as to appeal to only one playstyle, (not ideal, makes switching tactics hard mid-game)
- So powerful it becomes a must-have skill, (not ideal from a balance perspective)
- So weak it is ignored completely and never touched, (also not great)
- A middle of the road perk that is ignored/saved for last in favor of the niche or the powerful perks. (not desired but true of some of the perks already in-game)

This makes it very hard to add new skills because they have to compete with must-take skills, including skills for whatever weapon you’re using. If you use clubs, it has to compete with the club skill as well as whatever generally good perks you want to take. If you have a hybrid build that uses melee and ranged weapons, it has to compete with two weapon skill perks that are already competing for your next skill point allocation.

By implementing this system, skill magazine categories could similarly be cleared of dead wood, and allow for a more streamlined and less RNG dependent system. Entire categories could be removed, their bonuses placed in weapon mastery. Skill Magazines would provide more of a definitive sense of progression instead of feeling like collectibles in an open world Ubisoft map.

The previous problem with "learn by doing" systems was largely the exploiting of the crafting system to gain high level tools incredibly quickly. I still remember playing an earlier alpha, realizing that if I crafted stone axes all night, by day 2 I could have a mega axe for the rest of the game. It was a pretty boring gameplay style.

Therefore, I don't think that it's worthwhile ironing out a decreasing efficiency "learn by doing" on crafting items. Each item would require a diminishing return curve on xp for crafting mastery and that's a lot of work. Crafting higher quality items should be kept locked in skill magazines. That's a logical application of skill magazines - they TEACH you how to make things. With the new weapon mastery systems implemented, and the dead wood cleared out of the skill magazines, you'd be able to get crafting recipes much more consistently, especially those pertaining to your chosen playstyle.

There are some drawbacks to my proposal, but I feel that they can be overcome relatively simply, and that the benefits outweigh the costs.

The biggest issue is adaptability. If it's day 77 and you're trying to start using sledges for the first time, the experience will be rough. Similarly, switching from early game melee weapons to later game ranged weapons would feel like you’re regressing in power as you have to start a new weapon mastery and your new weapons suck for fighting the more powerful zombies you’re now fighting. In this way, weapon mastery could punish players in ways the current system does not. Right now you can safely dump points into a new weapon while using your old one and then immediately begin to use that weapon to 100% effectiveness.

To solve this problem, I would include a meta “zombie killing mastery” that supplements weapon master damage buffs. Zombie Killing Mastery would stop people from starting from scratch when changing to a new weapon. This mastery would be balanced with the other masteries to provide a certain percentage of the total damage bonus. E.g. ZKM provides 25% of the total damage you deal to zombies and WM 75%, or whatever values are deemed balanced. In other words, you’d still do more damage with a mastered weapon, but a portion of that damage would be a universal damage increase shared by all weapons coming from overall mastery at murder. A meta mastery at murder skill would allow adaptability in weapon choices until extreme late game, at which point you’re not really adapting weapon choices anyway.

Currently the skill magazines practically scream at you to loot as many POIs as fast as you can. They force you to interact with them by locking vital recipes for comfort and survival behind barriers. I don’t like this method of incentive. It’s too in your face about what it’s doing and why. It’s similar, but not the same, as the water changes. While I think the water changes are largely a net-neutral choice, the skill magazines seem like a slightly net-negative direction, as they increase RNG in an already RNG heavy game while simultaneously making it too obvious and oppressive in their attempt to control how the player should play the game.

By instead tying weapon mastery to zombie spawns, you're rewarding the player for naturally playing the game, looting POIs, and interacting with dangerous forces. It’s the same gameplay loop currently enforced by the skill magazines, but it's a system that nudges the player into playing the "right" way, instead of forcing them, while reducing the amount of RNG a player has to experience in their game.

While RNG is a good mechanic to have in a game, it is best used sparingly to create high highs for players, providing them with a dopamine rush when they find some particularly rare drop or high-tier loot. I don’t believe it should be used to turn a game into a lotto machine, where you have to keep spinning to win, and you never know if something’s going to happen on the first pull or the five hundredth.

TLDR; gam bad ded gam dev pls halp!!!

[TheJebblue]

Totally agree.

[Dagre]

yeah, they didn't want to do magazines when we had oblivion style skilling up but i think that would have been the better combo with mags than the current system. i'd still end up with the same issue i have with mags but if i'm stuck with mags, i'd prefer that vs a combo that works against itself in a group setting.

though what i'd really prefer is them finally sticking to one and balancing everything progression related so they finally know if it's working the way they want. that means balancing trader, gear loot drops and mags and xp rate. hopefully they could complement each other if balanced right but i don't have much hope for trader ever being in a sweet spot. though i would prefer unique items with perks at a ridiculous price from the trader instead of using it for basic upgrades.

[Dreadstone]

You know how we teach basic trainees how to shoot?

After some initial classroom instruction, and some "hands on" (mostly old school drills to pre-identify bad habits) with an observer / qualified instructor, we put their eager butts on a range.

MANY times.

They learn to shoot by SHOOTING. Crazy concept I know.

LBD gets a + 1 from me.

[ladyeternity]

Having some things learn by doing makes sense to me. Like Cardio, Weapon Skills, Weight Lifting (moving while encumbered), Lockpicking (Turn it into the Skyrim Mini-game please), Armor Skills (Wearing armor of that type -the more pieces of the type the higher chance of a skill gain- and moving/fighting in it), Jumping, Harvesting, Salvaging, Looting. Heck you could even add in Climbing - Wanna Nerd Pole....better have good climbing skill. Basically any 'action' skill that the player will actively do. That way no grinding needed. The skills just naturally go up as you play the game. Leave crafting to the magazines, leave the "Cook this faster/Craft this faster/Use less resources" to the perks.

Allow players to lockpick anything locked but gate it by lock difficulty. If a player destroys the lock then they LOSE half the loot.

All level 6 items can be crafted BUT you have to find the 'special' recipe for them. They would be considered 'Master Crafted' level. Basically a mark of mastering that 'tier'.

Tier 6-Stone level can only be found in Tier 2 missions or crafted.
Tier 6-Iron level can only be found in Tier 3 Missions or crafted.
Tier 6-Steel level can only be found in Tier 4 Missions or crafted.

Add in rare "legendary' tools/weapons/armor quality level

Tier Legendary level items can only have a slight chance to be found in Tier 5 Missions increased chance if Infested.

This way you can select the Tier of Missions according to your needs.

All tiers of item use should be gated behind skill gain or perk acquisition. That way you can't just pick up that fancy new high level gun and start using it without any investment. So the trader may GIVE you a fancy steel weapon on day 5 BUT you can't use it yet.

Taking the Mechanic skill would unlock variable speeds for vehicles as well as variety. A skilled Mechanic could FIX most cars sitting around and drive them, or give/sell them to friends.

I could keep going but...bleh. Was playing last night with the hubby and it occurred to me that the game really seems like someone making huge design decisions for 7 Days is a minimalist. They want to keep the game as straight forward and streamlined as possible. Now I am not against the minimalist approach but it's also not very fun. Most people want cool things to have fun with. And when you pear a game down to the most minimal it can ruin some of, if not most of the fun. At this point I am just waiting for it to go gold. Modding will fix most of the game.

Thank goodness for Undead Legacy. I can't wait for it to update.

[Cujo]

Originally posted by ladyeternity:

-snip-

I do agree that learn by doing could make a larger comeback than just weapon mastery, I just know that inevitably there will be exploits. Load up your character with weight every night and just walk around the house to level weightlifting, ect.

Weapon mastery tied to kills was the only one I couldn't think of a cheese method for, since the player has a limited impact on zombie spawns and they're paying ammo if they used ranged weapons.

Out of the ones you suggested, looting and lockpicking seem like the least exploitable candidates for a mastery system. The movement ones seem cheesable unless they give such small returns they become unsatisfying grinds.

I think that besides the skill magazines, traders need to be looked at very carefully. They should take longer to restock, and not offer such infinite and high-tier rewards for doing tasks you'd already be doing otherwise, like looting a POI or killing zombies. Perhaps the rewards come out of their shop inventory, or they give you a discount on their wares for a purchase or two?

[ladyeternity]

Bleh gamers are pretty smart. There's always going to be people cheesing the system. Honestly unless it's a forced eco system like a MMO style game who cares? :P YOU choose who you play with /shrug. If people cheese and exploit...I say let them cheese and exploit.

And let the rest of us having a good time! Darnit.

[Highlander]

All i had to read was the title A Return to Learn By Doing Got My Vote !!!!also on the flip side if it was to happen by some miracle we might have to see 10 more Alphas at minimum

[Cujo]

Originally posted by Highlander:

All i had to read was the title A Return to Learn By Doing Got My Vote !!!!also on the flip side if it was to happen by some miracle we might have to see 10 more Alphas at minimum

True, but I think I'd rather see more alphas than have such an RNG skill magazine system make it to beta, and be told that it can't be changed because we're no longer in alpha. Game's been cooking for literally forever. Seems to be what they like doing.

[Gnasty Gnorc]

I don't really think you're intended to learn everything.

That's kind of the point of getting a higher chance of finding books for your chosen skills. You're kind of forced to decide what skills you want to focus on.

[Jonnson]

I have to agree. With the magazines, we are already moving towards a more realistic way of learning skills. The magazines do well for crafting. I wouldn't want crafting to be increased in a "learn by doing" way, as that promotes either exploitation or tedious grinds, plus its more realistic, you cant practice a skill you dont have. Also, things like running and jumping should just be skill ups (cardio/parkour) since running around and jumping kills immersion. I have plenty experience with this from morrowind, and it is a game killer. Skills like knife or bow use should be "learn by doing," as those are skills you practice..that have a large range of skill variability. I mean, you can only be so good at chopping down trees, the best chopper isnt much better than the worst, its really more about strength. But the best marksman is much better than the worst, so learn by doing in this case makes a lot of sense, whereas reading a book makes none. And ofc reading a book is how you would gain the knowledge of how to make pumpkin pie. A simple task that doesnt need much practice once the recipe is known.

Edit; I think a combination of the 3 (reading to gain a skill, level up adds skill point for something like gaining more strength, and learn by doing for practicing with say a grenade launcher) is the best way to go.

[Dreadstone]

Originally posted by Jonnson:

I have to agree. With the magazines, we are already moving towards a more realistic way of learning skills. The magazines do well for crafting. I wouldn't want crafting to be increased in a "learn by doing" way, as that promotes either exploitation or tedious grinds, plus its more realistic, you cant practice a skill you dont have. Also, things like running and jumping should just be skill ups (cardio/parkour) since running around and jumping kills immersion. I have plenty experience with this from morrowind, and it is a game killer. Skills like knife or bow use should be "learn by doing," as those are skills you practice..that have a large range of skill variability. I mean, you can only be so good at chopping down trees, the best chopper isnt much better than the worst, its really more about strength. But the best marksman is much better than the worst, so learn by doing in this case makes a lot of sense, whereas reading a book makes none. And ofc reading a book is how you would gain the knowledge of how to make pumpkin pie. A simple task that doesnt need much practice once the recipe is known.

Edit; I think a combination of the 3 (reading to gain a skill, level up adds skill point for something like gaining more strength, and learn by doing for practicing with say a grenade launcher) is the best way to go.

Erm, perhaps you do learn by reading as opposed to doing. Perhaps. That is not however, "realism", that is a design choice by the devs.

Read all the books you want on swimming. Do you know how to swim? No. Not until you get into the pool and start turning laps.

[Nero]

Originally posted by Cujo:

Originally posted by ladyeternity:

-snip-

I do agree that learn by doing could make a larger comeback than just weapon mastery, I just know that inevitably there will be exploits. Load up your character with weight every night and just walk around the house to level weightlifting, ect.

Weapon mastery tied to kills was the only one I couldn't think of a cheese method for, since the player has a limited impact on zombie spawns and they're paying ammo if they used ranged weapons.

Out of the ones you suggested, looting and lockpicking seem like the least exploitable candidates for a mastery system. The movement ones seem cheesable unless they give such small returns they become unsatisfying grinds.

I think that besides the skill magazines, traders need to be looked at very carefully. They should take longer to restock, and not offer such infinite and high-tier rewards for doing tasks you'd already be doing otherwise, like looting a POI or killing zombies. Perhaps the rewards come out of their shop inventory, or they give you a discount on their wares for a purchase or two?

Everything is exploitable.
If you wanna do cardio training at night instead of base building or go out looting then so be it.

Same goes for weapon skills.
Ammo is more abundant than cobblestone and you can cheese kills with long horde nights + fiddling with zombie stats.

Lockpicking can be cheesed by resetting poi‘s with trader quests

I don‘t entirely disagree with your point, its just so easy to „exploit“ by using core mechanics that it wouldn’t matter for people who are determined to cheese

[Cujo]

Originally posted by Nero:

Originally posted by Cujo:

I do agree that learn by doing could make a larger comeback than just weapon mastery, I just know that inevitably there will be exploits. Load up your character with weight every night and just walk around the house to level weightlifting, ect.

Weapon mastery tied to kills was the only one I couldn't think of a cheese method for, since the player has a limited impact on zombie spawns and they're paying ammo if they used ranged weapons.

Out of the ones you suggested, looting and lockpicking seem like the least exploitable candidates for a mastery system. The movement ones seem cheesable unless they give such small returns they become unsatisfying grinds.

I think that besides the skill magazines, traders need to be looked at very carefully. They should take longer to restock, and not offer such infinite and high-tier rewards for doing tasks you'd already be doing otherwise, like looting a POI or killing zombies. Perhaps the rewards come out of their shop inventory, or they give you a discount on their wares for a purchase or two?

Everything is exploitable.
If you wanna do cardio training at night instead of base building or go out looting then so be it.

Same goes for weapon skills.
Ammo is more abundant than cobblestone and you can cheese kills with long horde nights + fiddling with zombie stats.

Lockpicking can be cheesed by resetting poi‘s with trader quests

I don‘t entirely disagree with your point, its just so easy to „exploit“ by using core mechanics that it wouldn’t matter for people who are determined to cheese

I agree. I strongly believe in a "play how you want" playstyle and that the dev need to stop trying to exploit proof their game. 7 Days to Die is an open world, (largely) randomly generated world where there are so many possible permutations of actions taken it's impossible for a dev team to adequately predict player behavoir and counter it 100%.

However, I also remember why they took out LBD in the first place, and I just don't want to fall back into that same pitfall. Systems being cheesed and exploitable will always exist in 7dtd, but that's no excuse for letting systems that are so easy to cheese be introduced. Like the night crafting fiasco, it funnels players into feeling as if they are playing the wrong way if they aren't playing optimally.

A certain percentage of those people will ignore that feeling and have fun.
A certain percentage will notice that feeling and complain about it on the forums.
A certain percentage will switch to exploiting the system and resent that fact.

I think my idea for weapon mastery could definitely be expanded further than what I suggested. But I purposely kept my scope small so that I would create a system that is both intuitive and only mildly exploitable, just enough for minmaxers and speedrunners to have fun, but not enough to cause the ordinary audience to switch.

In short, I agree that cheese inevitable, but I want to build a solid system that only has minor slippage, and not a gaping hole in it. I think the best system is probably one that is not rigid enough to be stifling, but not flexible enough to be pointless.

[Lord-Knight Fandragon]

Originally posted by Havik:

I don't really think you're intended to learn everything.

That's kind of the point of getting a higher chance of finding books for your chosen skills. You're kind of forced to decide what skills you want to focus on.

The only way you "cant learn everything" is if they put a hard limit to how many points you can have. Afaik, you can get as many points as you want.

[Vi-El]

I hate to be the person but: Learn by Doing is not going to come back. And I would love it to come back dont get me wrong here. But with how many mods already alter the game in such a way, TFP has no reason to change anything as players will just use mods to make the game "better" or "fix" it.

Fix is a strong word I hate to use for games with modding cause usually its overused and not correct. But I also can see what people mean when they say they are "fixing" an issue that exists for them. I usually call these people "modding andys" as they always just hail mods as the be all end all but that is what it is.

In turn tho, it isnt really a fix still. For one, modders will eventually move on. Meaning the mod itself will be abandoned as the games development continues. So in turn we will eventually sit here in years down the line with Alpha 51 and Undead Legacy was abandoned 13 alphas ago.

Still no successor as no one can remake it in the same way it was made originally. And it does "fix" quite a few things I dislike about the game, such as not being able to do learn by doing. But with the overall attitude of the community being "Just use mods" and people end up doing so, it paints a very clear picture for TFP.

And that is: We dont gotta do ♥♥♥♥.