A21 is all the fun of before with a much more roguelike experience

[Duckbutter]

Anyone else enjoying the need to be adaptable to RNG in the early game now? I find that it makes each play through <as I only play 1 life> tremendously more exciting and interesting than before.

[DerAlleinTiger]

No, this game was best when it had the most opportunities to go *around* the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ RNG. I don't want to play however the game decides I should through RNG. In the last few builds, I'd level into specific trees because *that's how I'd want to play.* Roguelike elements can be fun in games, but not when it's a long-term time investment like 7 Days.

They had such a good balance going for a time, where you could get extremely lucky with RNG for a big boost to your progression, or if the game isn't playing ball with you then you could invest a lot of skillpoints to get what you need. It might not be an optimal build for you, but you could guarantee your progression. Some nice, but not *necessary,* things were still RNG-only such as level 6 equipment, mods/mod recipes, perk books, and so on. So looting was still very important and very valuable, but you weren't left to the whims of RNG.

When you play in co-op, it's also extremely annoying to have half your inventory full of magazines for someone *else* to read, because if you don't do it that way then everyone's progress is going to come to a screeching halt because the loot is now spread out.

This is the single worst design decision they've made for the game and I can't wait for some modder to fix it. Almost everything else in this update is really cool, but the magazine system is utter garbage that would work if the game was actually designed as a roguelike and not a long-term survival game. I'm not a big fan of the dew collectors or removal of water jars either, but I can deal with that more, even though all it ultimately does is make you even *more* reliant on the traders and effectively give you a 'tax' for simply existing. I can deal with that, though. It's the magazines that have just made me not even want to play anymore.

[Bnn1]

Why's everyone flexing with their settings and their loot and their one death gameplay styles, and why are we comparing this game to a roguelike, you have no clue what roguelike even means!!!

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by Duckbutter:

Anyone else enjoying the need to be adaptable to RNG in the early game now? I find that it makes each play through <as I only play 1 life> tremendously more exciting and interesting than before.

Agreed.

[dr46onfusion]

If the game has a built in option to configure the 'stats' of stuff like modding does with XML files, then this can be overlooked very easily because instead of dictating what a water system does, you can add it all in, so you can use mechanics from A10, A20, A21, etc, by toggling it.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by Ben1:

...and why are we comparing this game to a roguelike, you have no clue what roguelike even means!!!

Do you?

[Bnn1]

Originally posted by ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Originally posted by Ben1:

...and why are we comparing this game to a roguelike, you have no clue what roguelike even means!!!

Do you? :staredown:

Most games I play could be considered roguelikes. Divinity not so much since it's too story driven to be around loot diving, but Pathfinder or DND can or easily are defineable as roguelikes. Diablo and Path of Exile are RPG's, but not roguelike since they are built around stats, gear, and fast clearing of areas of monsters, not the slow and planning approach of a roguelike.

Not saying roguelikes require slow hexfield gameplay to be enjoyable, but the essence is that planning (like a rogue does in a way), exploiting enemy weaknesses each turn (like a rogue does), delving to fight for loot or delving, getting loot and running (like a rogue definetly does!). The only thing 7DTD has in common with the classic early roguelikes is the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ graphics, but then again, Dwarf Fortress's "adventurer mode" is a classical roguelike with extremely complex world simulation, and abysmal graphical interface.

So technically, the OP is a little bit right, I will correct that. Roguelikes can be defined by bad graphics in favor of a complex engine and system, but 7DTD does not require careful planning, decision making and even when, it is often times futile. The game is too wonky to allow such things, and there is no magical "pause game and think of your next step" to save yourself in many situations, if you face 4 zombies and you are bleeding the hell and back there is no magical pause and decide to run away, you get stunned, knocked back, bled some more, dead.

That aside, the tools the player has are too limited. Bleeding has nearly no effect, burning zombies has nearly no effect, the environment can not be manipulated to kill or damage them reliably, they do not take fall damage, only trap damage works. This makes a rogues approach of sneakyness and using the environment impossible, whereas the player is always at risk of being crushed, burned, impaled. That does not mean roguelike, it's just hazards in the game to make it harder, but in roguelike it works both ways.

Zombies are too hard to kill compared to the player who dies nearly instantly when hit. The biggest selling point that might work is that 7DTD is insanely replayable, unless you burn yourself out. But there is tons of similar or cloned POI's, which could be classified as dungeons? So yeah.

It's a weird game with small roguelike elements at best. But what I miss the most, people are saying "1 life only mode" but the game has no such setting. It doesn't boot you to the main menu when you die, you have to quit voluntarily. I've been doing it correct, quitting when dying, yes?

For me it's not the challenge, I just do not like playing further after dying in the game, it's no fun having a run and it being stopped by dying.

That and being cautious because of older versions of the game. There was game versions around Alpha 5-6-7, where when you died, the game could start glitching out in terrible ways, characters bugged out. Same as in Skyrim, when you died in early versions of Skyrim and reloaded the savegame, you could end up with all kinds of mad permanent effects because of the faulty engine like stuck sound effects and stuck magical effects and what not.

Crazy.

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by Duckbutter:

Anyone else enjoying the need to be adaptable to RNG in the early game now? I find that it makes each play through <as I only play 1 life> tremendously more exciting and interesting than before.

Definitely. You have to adapt and use different solutions for the early game a bit more than before instead of the comfy usual pattern.

[minisith]

Originally posted by Ben1:

Originally posted by ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Do you? :staredown:

Most games I play could be considered roguelikes. Divinity not so much since it's too story driven to be around loot diving, but Pathfinder or DND can or easily are defineable as roguelikes. Diablo and Path of Exile are RPG's, but not roguelike since they are built around stats, gear, and fast clearing of areas of monsters, not the slow and planning approach of a roguelike.

Not saying roguelikes require slow hexfield gameplay to be enjoyable, but the essence is that planning (like a rogue does in a way), exploiting enemy weaknesses each turn (like a rogue does), delving to fight for loot or delving, getting loot and running (like a rogue definetly does!). The only thing 7DTD has in common with the classic early roguelikes is the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ graphics, but then again, Dwarf Fortress's "adventurer mode" is a classical roguelike with extremely complex world simulation, and abysmal graphical interface.

So technically, the OP is a little bit right, I will correct that. Roguelikes can be defined by bad graphics in favor of a complex engine and system, but 7DTD does not require careful planning, decision making and even when, it is often times futile. The game is too wonky to allow such things, and there is no magical "pause game and think of your next step" to save yourself in many situations, if you face 4 zombies and you are bleeding the hell and back there is no magical pause and decide to run away, you get stunned, knocked back, bled some more, dead.

That aside, the tools the player has are too limited. Bleeding has nearly no effect, burning zombies has nearly no effect, the environment can not be manipulated to kill or damage them reliably, they do not take fall damage, only trap damage works. This makes a rogues approach of sneakyness and using the environment impossible, whereas the player is always at risk of being crushed, burned, impaled. That does not mean roguelike, it's just hazards in the game to make it harder, but in roguelike it works both ways.

Zombies are too hard to kill compared to the player who dies nearly instantly when hit. The biggest selling point that might work is that 7DTD is insanely replayable, unless you burn yourself out. But there is tons of similar or cloned POI's, which could be classified as dungeons? So yeah.

It's a weird game with small roguelike elements at best. But what I miss the most, people are saying "1 life only mode" but the game has no such setting. It doesn't boot you to the main menu when you die, you have to quit voluntarily. I've been doing it correct, quitting when dying, yes?

For me it's not the challenge, I just do not like playing further after dying in the game, it's no fun having a run and it being stopped by dying.

That and being cautious because of older versions of the game. There was game versions around Alpha 5-6-7, where when you died, the game could start glitching out in terrible ways, characters bugged out. Same as in Skyrim, when you died in early versions of Skyrim and reloaded the savegame, you could end up with all kinds of mad permanent effects because of the faulty engine like stuck sound effects and stuck magical effects and what not.

Crazy.

So you can not play 1 life mode because you have to play by the game's setting? Ok, I break games all the time for fun. You do you. I enjoy A21. Also zombies do take fall dmg, they just will not die from any fall. Been that way for a while now.

[Keel]

Meh, i haven't liked many changes since A13-A14, and i still play the game when a new update comes out.

You adapt, you learn you play.

If the magazine thing is a problem, turn up loot. Which i don't know if it increases the chances or just gives you more of an item in the loot.

I haven't had a problem with the water either. It's a lot more challenging for sure.
Remember when you could just smash Grain Alcohol all f-n day to keep your Stamina full.
It takes away the survival aspect. And i guess having unlimited water did that also.


The base game should be challenging imo, There are so many advanced options to tweak if it's too hard or punishing; Hell some playthroughs i turn zombies to all walk.
I feel people including myself get used to how the game works and don't want to adjust.

Always forget this games probably forever gonna be in Alpha and changing.