So A21 sucks, but not because the features suck.

[irish_vampyre]

So far I have like 4 major issues.

1) Skill magazines. Just... Why? Like have them give you a little bump sure but why are we just reinventing the wheel of training by doing but instead of practice makes perfect we have to reread the same magazine 100 times? Why not make the level cap 1000 and offer the magazines as a way to help get better and learn recipes but the bulk of the training be simply by working on the skill. We had this NAILED in A16 and it still makes me mad that we dropped it.

2) Food and Water. The new no jars system is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my life. Seriously. The jars made perfect sense and they added a stockpile and prepare aspect now it's just: If you want to survive you can only do it the way we envisioned it. If you don't like it stop playing our game you noob! It's such a kick in the bits. I have been here since A2 and seen bad worse, better, ok, decent, great, and the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chef's kiss. This is by far one of the worst of the worst. Again, the feature of the collectors and things are a great SUPPLEMENT, but as primary feature it just makes the game feel tedious and stupid.

3) Challenge Rating. I love the POI naming, rating, biome application and difficulty variables, etc... but WHY. Just WHYYYYY?!!! Why is the stupid rating thing CONSTANTLY in my face? I liked the immersive feeling of just playing through the world and whatever comes comes. It'd be nice to have a place in the menus to look at where I am and the challenge rating if I care, but take it off my main screen, please!

4) Questing. This has really been an issue for a long time now but cane we PLEASE make it so that accepting a quest at the trader resets a location and not the massive exclamation point? I personally don't feel that we need the exclamation point at all. You accept the job and just free-form your way there and do it. Just make it so that entry into the quest zone requires the other party members withing like 50 meters to be included and if they aren't they don't get a share of the reward. I hate the way the party system took a major backward slide so now I have to micromanage my party to take on jobs rather than just go and if they aren't there they miss out. I hate that I can loot a place, start the quest and just reloot it instantly.

There's a lot of other things that really need love in my opinion. Getting weapon parts to upgrade my weapons like the old 600 system with part swapping was incredible. I think that having a gunsmithing table to do it would make a lot of sense, just like having a mechanic bay to upgrade car/vehicle parts would be incredible. You could be hunting down tools and supplements to make the stations better and more useful. I MUCH prefer the old system of if you spot the landmine you can pick it up. Maybe just make it so if you have a lockpick it has to be used as a pin for the mine and you lose them for taking maines and gain one for setting the mines. I think that condensing of "meat" was a mistake. Why not allow for pork, beef, bear, chicken, etc... and allow for expanded cooking and meal buffs based on the meal created?

In essence this game started as something comparable to Fallout in freedom and scope but with its own unique elements to a railroaded, "This is how you play the game and if you try to step outside of the experience we expect you to have then we're going to punish you for playing the game wrong." I've been here for years and this is slowly just starting to feel like betrayal and a Dev team that lost any sense of direction ages ago.

[Darren]

Supporting nearly every Word from you, really well written.

[william_es]

1. Crafting is no longer tied to attributes. Investing points in an attribute makes it more likely for those related books to appear, but they will still appear. Now I can make all the other things I use all the time, without having to waste points in a skill tree I find useless. It's a BRILLIANT move.

2. It's a non-issue after the first week or so. Not sure how you're playing, but i had no issues with water, either for drinking _or_ crafting. 75 rolls of duct tape for a drone, sure, no problem. Took 4 days of in-game playing.

3. It goes away and minimizes into the corner. I wouldn't call that "in your face", but I've noticed people are triggered by nearly everything nowadays. I like the fact that all the POI's have names, even the forest ones on the outside of towns. Now we can actually use those names to discuss a specific POI. Plus, some of them are funny. Like the one that's the combination of the names of 4 tech billionaires.

4. Having to go to the exclamation point? best thing ever. That way you get a chance to realize the POI you'll be resetting is your _own_ base, and if you do, you will LOSE ALL YOUR STUFF. Plus the names from #3 help you tell that too. In my current playthrough, if I see wrango barndo, or senor dragos estate, I decline that mission immediately. One is my base right next to my main trader, the other is horde/main base.

[Darren]

Originally posted by william_es:

1. Crafting is no longer tied to attributes. Investing points in an attribute makes it more likely for those related books to appear, but they will still appear. Now I can make all the other things I use all the time, without having to waste points in a skill tree I find useless. It's a BRILLIANT move.

But if i want to progress in crafting and need a recipie, i have to, to increase the chance to learn what i want to craft and not some random stuff i dont need, so theres no real difference (expect that i cant control anymore properly what i want to learn) IMO. And more: we could random find specific recipies without one point in the skill (Like: Recipie for Coffee) this is gone too, i have to read x Magazines or i will never be able to do this. (Maybe coffee wasnt the best example here, but im sure you know what i mean)

[leadmecca]

I'd really prefer going back to a mix of xp based unlocking recipes and LBD to increase items from 6 to 10, Remove the grind, and the option is there to go beyond regular items when you are weeks in. There is zero reason I should have to devote much of my time the first week or two clearing out a towns postal boxes and trader for magazines while I'm looting far better stuff from the start. You could pretty much remove magazines and just have trader play and looting at this point in time, maybe just have npc trainers you have to locate and pay them dukes.

[ladyeternity]

Survival Sim vs Arcade

They have chosen. Like it or not, they have decided how and where they want the game to go and it really doesn't matter most likely, to them, if we like it or not. They have their collective eyes on Gold and really are going to finish the game.

The magazine system is what they want in the game, it provides a sure flow to the game play and creates little ticks of Dopamine for the player which makes the player enjoy the game more. Personally if they want this system to work, if you die you should permanently lose some magazine knowledge. This would create limited need for said magazines and also cure the 'it's easier to just die' problem.

They changed the water to create a loop so the player had scarcity, which adds value and need to water. They don't care if it makes sense. They want streamlined and a closed game loop.

The challenge rating was added to make the game more accessible to new players. Instead of providing a sure protection for the player who doesn't really know the game they decided to put the red skulls in to indicate difficulty. This dumbing down was done to make the game easier for new players. That's it. Just like Oblivion/Skyrim dumbed down the skills and armor. Makes the game easier for new players to jump in and have fun.

The POI management with quests insures you have a reason to go into a POI. So they have it reset. /shrug. I guess they could put a timer, which would be started on a POI when you loot the end boxes. You wouldn't be able to initiate the Trader Quest Mark if the timer was ticking. But that would kill game flow so I doubt they will do it. Besides, the logic is each POI is NOT unique so it's a moot point to try to limit clears.

So basically, in short, they have decided to lean towards Accessibility and Arcade more than survival. Good paced game flow and predictability within a semi random system. I expect even more changes in the near future now that they have nailed down how they want everything to be.

Is it disappointing? Yes. I liked it when it was a survival sandbox more. But hey, there are overhaul mods. So it's fine, at least for me anyway.

[onanonehand8]

The game has changed, like it or not. The magazine learning system does one thing very well. It slows down progression and that was a goal that TFP wanted, again like it or not.

So, sit back and enjoy the aspects being missed by rushing for that crucible.

[Kryzzk]

Originally posted by ladyeternity:

Survival Sim vs Arcade

if you die you should permanently lose some magazine knowledge. This would create limited need for said magazines and also cure the 'it's easier to just die' problem.

This reminded me of when we had to have a schematic in our inventory to craft some items. If you died, you took a permanent hit to health, stamina and crafting ability, you had to build your health and stamina back up and put more points back into things you had learned to re-learn them. what was that A14?, A12? I don't remember, I think it only lasted one version, it was gone by A16. I just remember it was far more dangerous back then to trek across the map to get your gear back, but it was a pain to find the schematics needed to craft new stuff.

The new magazine system seems to be a hybrid of the old learn by doing (needed 100 points to level the skill) and the schematic system (you had to find schematics to craft/unlock the recipe depending on the recipe). I hate that they have moved away from sandbox style to Looter/Shooter style, I dislike those games and personally I feel that they have disrupted the flow of the game in A21 and made it less fun moving to this style, but at least this game can be modded.

I agree that adding the Skulls to let you know how hard a POI is going to be to help new players was a good idea, but Like OP I wish I could turn it off (And the tutorial). If I'm going to have to enter a building, I like not knowing if I can safely enter it.

[Michu]

Agree with OP 100%

I will add another one: loot quality tied to the player progression

It was fun and exciting when there was a chance to find something valuable early on.

[Flare |UKCS|]

While speccing into certain attributes increases the chance of that mag appearing it doesn't mean others wont appear, and some classes like the cooking mags appear in mostly logical places so you dont really need to spec to get that mag.

Water initially is a pain, but one cooking pot later and a few POI's done, and you will have enough water to drink, a few collectors and you will be stocking up on drinkable water, heck I buy a water cool to place in my pad just to hold water stacks.

Fair enough the POI name and skull tier system is arguable, some like it some don't, I personally don't find it an issue, but can understand why some do.

A fair point, I do find the quests a bit too powerful and accelerate progress too fast, you end up with items far up the tier list way before you can actually craft said items... like having sledge 5 unlock but you been rocking a iron 3 sledge for a while.
I would suggest TFP consider limiting the number of quests a player can accept to 2 per day, out of the usual 5 offering per day per trader.
This would limit how many rewards you can 'farm' and leave you with time to do some freelance work.
My opinion.

OP's post was a fair point, and well made but I offer my counter opinions.

EDIT: Removed the quote and my comment regarding the quote as both had no bearing on the topic

[stripesamillion]

its dumb imo.. to be a legit survival game it should be more realistic.. you don't have to read 20 or 50 magazines to learn to make coffee its one recipe... or to craft a meal it takes one recipe not multiple magazines unless ppl are dumb and cant read.. the water is trashed.. if it was too easy remove jars and make ppl have to gather the resources to craft them.. the game is becoming like fallout 76. whats next not need to eat or drink cause it dont effect your person.....

[LeeingLow]

Originally posted by irish_vampyre:

So far I have like 4 major issues.

1) Skill magazines. Just... Why? Like have them give you a little bump sure but why are we just reinventing the wheel of training by doing but instead of practice makes perfect we have to reread the same magazine 100 times? Why not make the level cap 1000 and offer the magazines as a way to help get better and learn recipes but the bulk of the training be simply by working on the skill. We had this NAILED in A16 and it still makes me mad that we dropped it.

2) Food and Water. The new no jars system is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever seen in my life. Seriously. The jars made perfect sense and they added a stockpile and prepare aspect now it's just: If you want to survive you can only do it the way we envisioned it. If you don't like it stop playing our game you noob! It's such a kick in the bits. I have been here since A2 and seen bad worse, better, ok, decent, great, and the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chef's kiss. This is by far one of the worst of the worst. Again, the feature of the collectors and things are a great SUPPLEMENT, but as primary feature it just makes the game feel tedious and stupid.

3) Challenge Rating. I love the POI naming, rating, biome application and difficulty variables, etc... but WHY. Just WHYYYYY?!!! Why is the stupid rating thing CONSTANTLY in my face? I liked the immersive feeling of just playing through the world and whatever comes comes. It'd be nice to have a place in the menus to look at where I am and the challenge rating if I care, but take it off my main screen, please!

4) Questing. This has really been an issue for a long time now but cane we PLEASE make it so that accepting a quest at the trader resets a location and not the massive exclamation point? I personally don't feel that we need the exclamation point at all. You accept the job and just free-form your way there and do it. Just make it so that entry into the quest zone requires the other party members withing like 50 meters to be included and if they aren't they don't get a share of the reward. I hate the way the party system took a major backward slide so now I have to micromanage my party to take on jobs rather than just go and if they aren't there they miss out. I hate that I can loot a place, start the quest and just reloot it instantly.

There's a lot of other things that really need love in my opinion. Getting weapon parts to upgrade my weapons like the old 600 system with part swapping was incredible. I think that having a gunsmithing table to do it would make a lot of sense, just like having a mechanic bay to upgrade car/vehicle parts would be incredible. You could be hunting down tools and supplements to make the stations better and more useful. I MUCH prefer the old system of if you spot the landmine you can pick it up. Maybe just make it so if you have a lockpick it has to be used as a pin for the mine and you lose them for taking maines and gain one for setting the mines. I think that condensing of "meat" was a mistake. Why not allow for pork, beef, bear, chicken, etc... and allow for expanded cooking and meal buffs based on the meal created?

In essence this game started as something comparable to Fallout in freedom and scope but with its own unique elements to a railroaded, "This is how you play the game and if you try to step outside of the experience we expect you to have then we're going to punish you for playing the game wrong." I've been here for years and this is slowly just starting to feel like betrayal and a Dev team that lost any sense of direction ages ago.

fr this alpha is so bad. Zombies hearing you thro hundreds of walls even when ur crouching. Only 90% 60fps on 3070 and 4060. Only way to survive is by finding magazines so u can learn a skill. Sad.

[minisith]

Originally posted by stripesamillion:

its dumb imo.. to be a legit survival game it should be more realistic.. you don't have to read 20 or 50 magazines to learn to make coffee its one recipe... or to craft a meal it takes one recipe not multiple magazines unless ppl are dumb and cant read.. the water is trashed.. if it was too easy remove jars and make ppl have to gather the resources to craft them.. the game is becoming like fallout 76. whats next not need to eat or drink cause it dont effect your person.....

It is suppose to be an illegit survival game. So it does not need realism with zombies. So glad you forgave fallout 76 for ripping of their fans with close enough leather bags but not leather. I thought ever fallout game food was never maditory. 76 was bad not for your reasons.

[rincewind]

Disagree with all points.

I find that the magazine system is a vast improvement, making crafting much more organic and it feels good. Sure, needs some tweaking, like the wild trader reward that invalidate that branch, but hope that they keep improving it.

Water, finally is an issue with the new changes, at least at the beginning.

The skulls? Weird thing to complain about, but there are mods to remove it.

And about the quest, if don't like double looting, don't do it. D'oh. Anyways, who do that? Is pretty boring imho.

For me is as if the dev team finally is starting to get it right, since A19.
Hope that they keep improving the game.
Of course, there are things that I don't like (farming for example), but overall, the game keeps improving with each of the latest alphas.

[Milkless Tea]

Dw they will just remove it all next alpha

[LokitheWeaver]

Originally posted by irish_vampyre:

So far I have like 4 major issues.

Getting weapon parts to upgrade my weapons like the old 600 system with part swapping was incredible.

This. Perhaps not the perfect system, but it made the whole "useless unless it is a pipe machine gun" addition to the game pale in comparison (at least in the fun category.) It made a long term goal, finding each weapon (even if it was the same overall ql as what you had) exciting / fun as there was a chance you could improve what you used. It was a meaningful progression that integrated well - early game you could use a low ql weapon and all that ammo. Mid game you had a better weapon and by end game you were pushing top tier - all through your efforts not a simple shopping trip to a trader . . .