A21 Should Keep Reusable Empty Jars

[FT]

At least I think that's how I'd prefer it. First, I should probably test that theory...and you can too.
Anyone looking to test what it's like to keep refillable jars while having the other upcoming water-jar changes/limits can do it right now in A20 without any mods.

-Start a new world/save and play normally, but when you're looting through a POI, throw any empty jars and boiled-water/teas/coffee you find onto the ground to despawn...keeping only the murky water.

-Don't boil the murky water until you find a cooking pot.

-Don't craft jars in the forge.


Now you'll only have the few murky-water jars you find as you loot, and you'll only be able to keep/refill the ones you drink from since glue-making and cooking breaks them.

After 7-8days (or 7-8hours if you play 2hour days) of normal playing, how many jars have you managed to collect? Is it too many or not enough?


I posted this in a discussion earlier, but I feel like it makes more sense as it's own thread where I can hopefully gather other players' thoughts and jar numbers. I don't know if other peoples' playstyles mean something like this will have wildly different results or stay relatively consistent.

[Roland]

There are a few things missing from A20 that A21 has such as dew collectors and being able to drink directly from a water source and a brand new loot distribution. However, I agree that simulating any change from the default can be fun and eye opening so why not? It will at the least possibly form the basis for a new mod if someone who has that talent tries it and feels passionately about how it enhances the gameplay for them :-)

[FT]

Originally posted by Roland:

There are a few things missing from A20 that A21 has such as dew collectors and being able to drink directly from a water source and a brand new loot distribution. However, I agree that simulating the change as much as possible can give you a general feel for what's coming and doing as you suggest without the other A21 changes makes it actually a bit tougher than it will be so that when A21 does drop and you play it with all the features it will feel like easy mode. :-)

I'm thinking reusable/refillable jars and the DewCollector are likely mutually exclusive. I'm pretty sure having both options at the same time would make water-collecting easier than the devs want it to be.
I could be wrong about that though, and I'd love for both to be able to coexist.

Drinking directly from water for -5health and +10less thirst and a chance of dysentery draining both hunger+thirst isn't something any experienced player is likely to interact with. And any super thirsty newby who tries it will end up with a 25-50% hit to their healthbar for the effort...and maybe dysentery.

[Shurenai]

There's one big problem with reusable empty jars- And it's one that there is no solution for. With a reusable jar, You only need a single jar and you now have access to infinite clean drinking water. It might be tedious; But it's infinite and basically costless.

I'll grant that the dew collector is also infinite- But it's limited in that you get 3 jars a day, very slowly, and it has a large upfront crafting cost to boot. It's also not exactly portable, nor can you just scrounge up the supplies for it anywhere. In A20, A single jar, 5 stone, and 1 wood lets you craft boiled water next to any water source, and the materials can be sourced almost anywhere in any biome- and water sources are pretty common in A20 too. Sacrifice an inventory slot to carry a pot if you're enforcing the cooking pot requirement.

The single biggest and most common reason I see people desperately wanting to keep empty jars is mass glue making via murky water- But there may well be a reasonable solution to that coming in A21 to resolve that perceived problem in spite of the jar removal. We don't have every single tiny detail just yet. For example, Glue might be craftable with the water gained from a dew collector, Or maybe there's a new recipe that lets you use clay to murk-ify clean water, Or maybe glue crafts in amounts greater than 1 per water- Maybe it makes a batch of 5.

Originally posted by Roland:

There are a few things missing from A20 that A21 has such as dew collectors and being able to drink directly from a water source and a brand new loot distribution. However, I agree that simulating any change from the default can be fun and eye opening so why not? It will at the least possibly form the basis for a new mod if someone who has that talent tries it and feels passionately about how it enhances the gameplay for them :-)

I think the loot table rebalance might be the biggest thing, In A21, murky water drop rates have almost assuredly been rebalanced to compensate for the removal of tea/coffe/water/etc sources from loot.


Still, overall I agree with Roland- Trying a new way to play can be eye opening. For example, I feel like some STR/INT-Only players really need to give another tree a try from time to time, because they aren't half as bad as the common belief.

Edit: some edits for clarification.

[DerFinneAT]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

. In A20, A single jar, 5 stone, and 1 wood lets you craft boiled water next to any water source, and the materials can be sourced almost anywhere in any biome- and water sources are pretty common in A20 too. Sacrifice an inventory slot to carry a pot if you're enforcing the cooking pot requirement.

That almost sounds like something, you would expect as a survival-mechanic in a survival-game.

Agai: I amooming forward to A21, and I will judge, when I can play.

But this change - albeit sorely needed to bring a bit of meaningful survival-complexity back - is very gamy, and probably only needed, because other areas of 7d2d have become increasingly gamefied since before A13 to make things "more fun". (aka bash more zombies)

[FT]

Glue will be craftable using boiled water in A21, either from the DewCollector or from the Campfire.
If the devs end up feeling like glue is too rare, they can simply increase its loot amounts.

I'm mainly concerned with allowing players to still interact with decorative water like a water-source (discounting the direct drink because of the reasons I wrote in Post#2).
I think losing decorative water as a source feels awkward in a survival game, and I'd rather find a way to work with it than give up on it. I think both can be accomplished while still keeping the devs' plan to make water/thirst more of a concern in the first week.


An experienced player would already have a DewCollector started by day3 in normal A21, and wouldn't be thirsty either way because they'll know to rush trader missions+looting. Thirst is only going to be a problem for new players either way.

It's only going to be a new player who sits by a water source with a reusable jar when their thirst bar gets really low by day2-3. A new player with a single jar that they're reusing over and over with a pot and campfire is someone who's struggling and surviving by using their head. They're going to feel like they're clever, and they'll get rewarded for having a little ingenuity. They'll realize it's viable but tedious, but it gets better as they loot more POIs gradually collecting more jars and loot and experience.

A new player WITHOUT the option of a reusable jar in the same situation of regular A21 will wonder why they can't boil water from a decorative source using their inventory or cooking pot (or later their bucket), then get frustrated and either keep looting for water or die/respawn...and thirst won't be a problem after that, either because they found some more murky water or died trying. Then they'll either repeat that cycle until they can craft a DewCollector or come to the forums asking for help...or quit playing.

Either way it's only really an issue with brand new players, and only in their first week.
Is the DewCollector a significantly more fun/rewarding mechanic?
I'd argue that it's more rewarding to believe you've cleverly worked around a problem than it is to realize "oh, I need to build this drink machine".
I also think boiling from a decorative water-source is more intuitive.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

There's one big problem with reusable empty jars- And it's one that there is no solution for. With a reusable jar, You only need a single jar and you now have access to infinite clean drinking water. It might be tedious; But it's infinite and basically costless.

I'll grant that the dew collector is also infinite- But it's limited in that you get 3 jars a day, very slowly, and it has a large upfront crafting cost to boot. It's also not exactly portable, nor can you just scrounge up the supplies for it anywhere. (A single jar, 5 stone, and 1 wood lets you craft boiled water next to any water source- and water sources are pretty common in A20. Sacrifice an inventory slot to carry a pot if you're enforcing the cooking pot requirement)

The single biggest and most common reason I see people desperately wanting to keep empty jars is mass glue making via murky water- But there may well be a reasonable solution to that coming in A21 to resolve that perceived problem in spite of the jar removal. We don't have every single tiny detail just yet. For example, Glue might be craftable with the water gained from a dew collector, Or maybe there's a new recipe that lets you use clay to murk-ify clean water, Or maybe glue crafts in amounts greater than 1 per water- Maybe it makes a batch of 5.

Originally posted by Roland:

There are a few things missing from A20 that A21 has such as dew collectors and being able to drink directly from a water source and a brand new loot distribution. However, I agree that simulating any change from the default can be fun and eye opening so why not? It will at the least possibly form the basis for a new mod if someone who has that talent tries it and feels passionately about how it enhances the gameplay for them :-)

I think the loot table rebalance might be the biggest thing, In A21, murky water drop rates have almost assuredly been rebalanced to compensate for the removal of tea/coffe/water/etc sources from loot.


Still, overall I agree with Roland- Trying a new way to play can be eye opening. I feel like some STR/INT-Only players really need to give another tree a try from time to time, because they aren't half as bad as the common belief.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by DerFinneAT:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

. In A20, A single jar, 5 stone, and 1 wood lets you craft boiled water next to any water source, and the materials can be sourced almost anywhere in any biome- and water sources are pretty common in A20 too. Sacrifice an inventory slot to carry a pot if you're enforcing the cooking pot requirement.

That almost sounds like something, you would expect as a survival-mechanic in a survival-game.

Agai: I amooming forward to A21, and I will judge, when I can play.

But this change - albeit sorely needed to bring a bit of meaningful survival-complexity back - is very gamy, and probably only needed, because other areas of 7d2d have become increasingly gamefied since before A13 to make things "more fun". (aka bash more zombies)

Except it's not a survival mechanic when it's so ridiculously easy to get infinite water.

But, Let's do some some comparison for the sake of reasonable discourse.

Project Zomboid is possibly the most apt. The bottles are reusable/refillable, you can even boil them in a microwave. EZ infinite water, right? Except it's not.

First we'll assume you had atrocious luck and the water is out, and the water is all gone from anywhere near where you are.

To get tainted water you need a water source- You have two options. Hope for it to rain, Which it may not for weeks at a time; Or base right next to a lake/the main river. In the former case, if you're incredibly lucky, it can happen anywhere and you just need to find a microwave to boil it. For the latter, off a single bottle, your movement range is now restricted to how far you can go before that bottle is empty, which dramatically limits your options.

But wait, RNGesus strikes, 8 days in the power shuts off. Now you can't just boil your water bottle anywhere- In fact you can't boil it at all, the only options now are grills, and campfires, neither of which will boil a bottle of water. If you're lucky, you've found both a generator and it's how-to magazine and can keep boiling your single bottle back at your base; Else, you now die of dehydration.

But to continue the thought experiment a little further, we pick up a single cooking pot- The analogue to the cooking pot from 7DTD. Now we can boil water on a grill- But charcoal is rare and limited, so is propane. Or we can boil it in a campfire, but the materials for that while available aren't able to be picked up just anywhere, and you won't necessarily have easy access to fuel and tinder to light it even if you happened to find the materials nearby.


So while the bottle is technically access to infinite water in PZ, It's limited- It greatly restricts your range of motion, And is on borrowed time from the start.

In PZ, Once the water shuts off, You have to constantly go out and get more water holding containers, you have to constantly go out and bring back tainted water to boil, you have to constantly visit further and further buildings to drain the sinks/tubs/etc of fresh water. The longer you play, the more sparse water becomes. Even when you make rain collectors, You're still at the mercy of RNG- Will it rain? Or not?- And even if it rains, will it rain enough for you to water your crops AND drink it yourself, Or will you maybe have to sacrifice your harvest so that you don't die to dehydration, meaning you now have to solve a food problem instead.

Water in PZ is not just one and done, It's not just tedium.


Subnautica. To continue getting clean water, you have to keep going out and catching literal filter fish- Not one and done. And gamey as heck, even if it's thematic. Filter fish.(named bladder fish, but its used to filter water)

The Long Dark, Water is everywhere. Unfortunately, it's also frozen. So you have to constantly range out to get the materials to make fires and boil water to keep yourself alive.

The Forest, All the standing water in the map is saltwater or polluted and dangerous to drink. Convenient and, imo, just as gamey as the proposed changes for 7DTD, but that aside, the only way to get clean drinking water is by making a rain collector with a turtle shell and praying it rains; Or by happening across an incredibly rare find, the pot (that was only added much later in development).

Raft; Everywhere is salt water. At least it's not gamey this time, it takes place on a giant ocean. It's odd that there are no freshwater ponds on ANY of the islands though innit. And yet- A single water container and a fire and you've got infinite hydration. Your raft always floats forward, you'll always have wood from the drifting materials- You can't just bring it anywhere, but your raft is never far from your location except on the largest islands, at which point you will definitely already have the improved water bottle that holds more than a single drink of water.


There's one consistent thing going on here- Water is either game-ily restricted, typically by making it undrinkable ala salty/polluted water, Or it's so easy it's barely an inconvenience and may as well not exist since except for the first 30 minutes of the game it's never a recognizable threat to the player.

A Survival game should be able to consistently threaten the players survival chances with it's survival mechanics; If it doesn't, It's failing, and it needs to be resolved.

Long Dark does it really well, from my experience- Water is something you have to work for and is a constant concern.

Project Zomboid comes close, And yet, Much as I love it, PZ also suffers from what 7DTD does. There is a point of critical mass after which water is never concern again. Once you have 3+ rain collectors, Or a sufficient number of containers of whatever shape or form, It's never a problem again- Analagous to 7DTD's existing reusable jar problem- Day 1, acquire many jars, never run out of water.

[FT]

I think the main problems making some things super easy are that you can currently visit a single POI on your first day and walk away with 10+jars with some containing coffee and boiled water so thirst is instantly not an issue, and by day1-2 you can craft a forge to make infinite jars for infinite glue/tape.

Those issues are instantly solved by making jars non-craftable and making EmptyJars+BoiledWater non-lootable, and maybe making murky water a little rarer in loot if needed.
Boom. No infinite jars, no pile of easy drinks from a single POI.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by FT:

I think the main problems making some things super easy are that you can currently visit a single POI on your first day and walk away with 10+jars with some containing coffee and boiled water so thirst is instantly not an issue, and by day1-2 you can craft a forge to make infinite jars for infinite glue/tape.

Those issues are instantly solved by making jars non-craftable and making EmptyJars+BoiledWater non-lootable, and maybe making murky water a little rarer in loot if needed.
Boom. No infinite jars, no pile of easy drinks from a single POI.

Find a single jar of any liquid, drink it-> infinite water ala the above. No infinite jars needed- Just a single jar, a water source, and a way to clean it.

In A20 and A21, there's water sources everywhere, In ditches, theres lil lakes everywhere, in POI pools. And stone to make a campfire is also everywhere- Smack any stone looking structure a few times, trip over them as you walk around, loot them, smack the sidewalk or road. And wood for fuel is everywhere- smack any wood looking structure a few times, trip over wood bushes, break fences, chop any of the billion trees you'll walk past. all you need is ONE reusable jar, And while tedious, You have infinite water conveniently at essentially any location you visit.

[FT]

Water in TheLongDark is super easy. You just collect bottles or snow and boil it to make potable water wherever you end up indoors if there's a stove/grill (most places have) or outdoors at a campfire if the weather isn't awful.

Water in Zomboid is super easy at first while electricity and water works (unless you crank difficulty or get super unlucky), and still pretty easy with a common pot and campfire.
Also very easy if you find a well...if that hasn't been nerfed.

TheForest's way of doing things is a bit frustrating and feels contrived/forced (rainwater I collect is fine but if it collects somewhere else it's suddenly "bad"?).

Originally posted by Shurenia:

Convenient and, imo, just as gamey as the proposed changes for 7DTD

That doesn't exactly sound like a glowing review of either game's strategy.

[FT]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Find a single jar of any liquid, drink it-> infinite water ala the above. No infinite jars needed- Just a single jar, a water source, and a way to clean it.

In A20 and A21, there's water sources everywhere, In ditches, theres lil lakes everywhere, in POI pools. And stone to make a campfire is also everywhere- Smack any stone looking structure a few times, trip over them as you walk around, loot them, smack the sidewalk or road. And wood for fuel is everywhere- smack any wood looking structure a few times, trip over wood bushes, break fences, chop any of the billion trees you'll walk past. all you need is ONE reusable jar, And while tedious, You have infinite water conveniently at essentially any location you visit.

It's similarly easy in TheLongDark and Zomboid.

You also left-out 7Days needing a pot, and that it won't work that way for infinite glue.

Like I mentioned, this isn't something any experienced player will do...Only a new player, and only in their first week, and only if they are avoiding looting POIs.
So it ends up as jumping through hoops to avoid a niche and temporary perceived issue at the expense of fun and intuitive gameplay...when most/all the larger issues are solved without the hoops nor expense.

The devs are changing it to "visit the dude who sells you stuff to buy the macguffin you need to build that drink-maker to have infinite water".

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by FT:

Water in TheLongDark is super easy. You just collect bottles or snow and boil it to make potable water wherever you end up indoors if there's a stove/grill (most places have) or outdoors at a campfire if the weather isn't awful.

Water in Zomboid is super easy at first while electricity and water works (unless you crank difficulty or get super unlucky), and still pretty easy with a common pot and campfire.
Also very easy if you find a well...if that hasn't been nerfed.

TheForest's way of doing things is a bit frustrating and feels contrived/forced (rainwater I collect is fine but if it collects somewhere else it's suddenly "bad")?

Originally posted by Shurenia:

Convenient and, imo, just as gamey as the proposed changes for 7DTD

That doesn't exactly sound like a glowing review of either game's strategy.

To the latter first, The point I was attempting to make wasn't a review of either game's strategy- But that a fact of life is that games have game mechanics...that are often gamey. Yet very few people really have a problem with the Forest's gamey mechanic, but 7DTD has a gamey mechanic? We can't have that. Gamey mechanics are something to be expected in games- Even the greatest games are not free from them, Because game mechanics are what make them games and not real life.


In TLD yeah, water is everwhere, I even said as much. But, Your access to fuel and ways to ignite fire is not limitless. Maybe it's changed drastically since the last time I played, but it was far from easy to keep a consistent water supply when I played last.. Because I lacked fire.

In zomboid, Yeah, a well, or lake, or river is infinite water- But it's also like a chain that ties you down, you're restricted in how far you can go from that well/lake/river if you want to keep your water supply. A common pot is common, but a campfire isn't, It takes materials that aren't likely to just be around at any given time, requiring you to commit a significant portion of your very limited carrying capacity to bringing the campfire materials, a lighter/match, and often tinder to light it with you. It's a choice you CAN make, but it's again a very restricting choice- And unlike 7DTD, there aren't little ponds, pools, ditches, rain gulleys etc all over the place full of water to fill your pot up. Lakes and other guaranteed sources of tainted water are few and far between- Which goes right back to restricting how far you can go; Does you no good to bring along campfire materials a pot, a lighter, and some scrap paper if there's no water for ten miles in any direction.

[Ruffio]

Someone should ask "Ed Stafford" how he feel about not use a reuseable container for water in a survival situation -)

How are we going to make molotows without bottles?
As we can not make glass jars anylonger, we shouldn't be able to make any glass what so ever? So glass blocks should be out?

How about empty cans? Can we store water in those? Or do they magically vanish after you eaten your favorite brand of cat food? -)

[FT]

Originally posted by Ruffio:

Someone should ask "Ed Stafford" how he feel about not use a reuseable container for water in a survival situation -)

How are we going to make molotows without bottles?
As we can not make glass jars anylonger, we shouldn't be able to make any glass what so ever? So glass blocks should be out?

How about empty cans? Can we store water in those? Or do they magically vanish after you eaten your favorite brand of cat food? -)

The molotov (wow, my spelling) recipe is getting changed so it won't use jars anymore, and empty-cans are getting removed too.

I suppose making glass is likely the only reason we'll still have a spot for broken-glass/sand in the forge....though I'd argue broken-glass should probably be removed at this point since it won't be common enough for suicide-out-of-glitch situations without jars being common in loot anymore (and if the devs feel a suicide-out-of-glitch option is still important, they can add it back into the pause menu options).

[FT]

As for the test so far:
Reaching the morning of Day3 I finally drank the boiled-water you start the game with because my character's thirst-bar was completely empty. My hunger-bar is full from food I've looted..I haven't cooked or bought anything yet.
I've looted ~5 POIs (2missions plus 3 just because they were nearby and I wanted a cooking-pot).

So far I've collected 7MurkyWater, 3Coffee and 2GoldenrodTea....and zero CookingPots. :(
I haven't used any of it though.

I've been avoiding spending perk points aside from a couple SexyRex perks, so I can't build a forge to craft a CookingPot until I....find..the recipe. I just realized, in A21 I'd have probably read enough books to craft a forge about now (maybe?). Rolaaaaand?!


My Anti-CookingPot luck aside, it looks like early-game thirst isn't going to be a problem either way...whether or not jars disappear, and with/without the DewCollector.
I'm just too fantastic at this game (flexes dem noodles).
Just the MurkyWater from loot alone will be plenty for anyone who loots a small POI or two in a day....I get the feeling stay-at-home miners are going to get hit hard by this change for their first 7-8days though (after that they'll have 1-2 DewCollectors going and thirst won't be an issue).

[Patchy (sick)]

but you can turn jars into bunch of shards, which you can eat, taste of shards is pretty good, so good even my character died!!!