Sledgehammer is overpowered

[Uscari]

100% chance to knockdown virtually anything without stunting your stamina is fundamentally broken.

I can clear T5 quests without firing a single shot from a gun as long as I have my trusty sledgehammer. With beer or sufficient perks I can kite a group of irradiated zombies all day, knocking them down and slowly finishing them off. If I power attack I have a very strong chance of stunlocking litterally all of them, headshotting each one for 700+ dmg while gaining literally all of my stamina back from Sex Rex.

This weapon needs a nerf, it basically replaces guns in all circumstances other than horde night, and even then you can construct a pretty powerful melee base.

Game is too easy with the sledgehammer as it's currently balanced.

[Uscari]

Publicado originalmente por Auric Carnage:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

100% chance to knockdown virtually anything without stunting your stamina is fundamentally broken.

I can clear T5 quests without firing a single shot from a gun as long as I have my trusty sledgehammer. With beer or sufficient perks I can kite a group of irradiated zombies all day, knocking them down and slowly finishing them off. If I power attack I have a very strong chance of stunlocking litterally all of them, headshotting each one for 700+ dmg while gaining literally all of my stamina back from Sex Rex.

This weapon needs a nerf, it basically replaces guns in all circumstances other than horde night, and even then you can construct a pretty powerful melee base.

Game is too easy with the sledgehammer as it's currently balanced.

Speaking of "Broken," by your reckoning, I suppose being able to one shot everything with fist weapons + mods and max perks, along with beer and other must also be ridiculous. Honestly, using the fists is so much more fun to me.

It also makes sense that if you're swinging such a heavy object and especially maxed out with buffs, mods, etc. that you should knock your opponent down. hell, it should tear them in half. A bodies only real consistent parts are bone, the rest is water. Even then, if you slice/hit at the right spots, you'll still go right through.

Once again, there's a difference between "being able to" 1-shot everything and actually 1-shotting everything.

Against groups of ferals and irradiated zombies, you aren't going to land headshots at max swing speed consistently without taking a bunch of unnecessary damage, unless you are doing it for a horde base design, but that's what guns are for.

The realism argument doesen't hold water in 7 days to die. Your character shouldn't have to read a book to figure out how to boil meat. He also shouldn't have to shoot a zombie 3 times in the head with a pistol to them them. He also shouldn't be able to fall from 100ft in the air without breaking his leg because his boots have padding or he's "agile".

This game isn't entirely realistic and it shouldn't be balanced around realism.

[Auric Carnage]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Publicado originalmente por Auric Carnage:

Speaking of "Broken," by your reckoning, I suppose being able to one shot everything with fist weapons + mods and max perks, along with beer and other must also be ridiculous. Honestly, using the fists is so much more fun to me.

It also makes sense that if you're swinging such a heavy object and especially maxed out with buffs, mods, etc. that you should knock your opponent down. hell, it should tear them in half. A bodies only real consistent parts are bone, the rest is water. Even then, if you slice/hit at the right spots, you'll still go right through.

Once again, there's a difference between "being able to" 1-shot everything and actually 1-shotting everything.

Against groups of ferals and irradiated zombies, you aren't going to land headshots at max swing speed consistently without taking a bunch of unnecessary damage, unless you are doing it for a horde base design, but that's what guns are for.

The realism argument doesen't hold water in 7 days to die. Your character shouldn't have to read a book to figure out how to boil meat. He also shouldn't have to shoot a zombie 3 times in the head with a pistol to them them. He also shouldn't be able to fall from 100ft in the air without breaking his leg because his boots have padding or he's "agile".

This game isn't entirely realistic and it shouldn't be balanced around realism.

Perks and buffs imply that you can with time and levelling. You're beating a dead horse man, give up.

[Uscari]

Publicado originalmente por Auric Carnage:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Once again, there's a difference between "being able to" 1-shot everything and actually 1-shotting everything.

Against groups of ferals and irradiated zombies, you aren't going to land headshots at max swing speed consistently without taking a bunch of unnecessary damage, unless you are doing it for a horde base design, but that's what guns are for.

The realism argument doesen't hold water in 7 days to die. Your character shouldn't have to read a book to figure out how to boil meat. He also shouldn't have to shoot a zombie 3 times in the head with a pistol to them them. He also shouldn't be able to fall from 100ft in the air without breaking his leg because his boots have padding or he's "agile".

This game isn't entirely realistic and it shouldn't be balanced around realism.

Perks and buffs imply that you can with time and levelling. You're beating a dead horse man, give up.

If I spend 5 skill points in a melee tree, I should have a genuine utility for that melee that matches the effectiveness of any other melee.

There is no other melee that even comes close to beating the Sledgehammer in terms of effectiveness, because not only does Sledge provide unmatched crowd control, but due to the tight melee hitboxes and evasive zombies at high gamestage, crowd control more often than not leads to superior damage output.

The only melee that comes close to challenging the sledge is the baseball bat, all other melees are frankly garbage.

[Khissi]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

The only melee that comes close to challenging the sledge is the baseball bat, all other melees are frankly garbage.

Well, but see, YOUR garbage may be another person's caviar. Just because you like to play a certain way and are quite good at it doesn't mean that another person with different skills can't be quite good at a different style of melee. Your argument means nothing against the fact that human beings are all different, have different likes and dislikes and can be good at different things. Your stats and figures and DPS mean nothing if Joe over there can pick up a machete and do massive crazy damage to a hoard of zombies in a short amount of time while you stand there with your mouth open. Or, if Cynthia, little tiny thing that she is, can pick up a baseball bat and wreck holy heckfire on every zombie in sight.

Just saying...

[Segovax]

Publicado originalmente por Khissi:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

The only melee that comes close to challenging the sledge is the baseball bat, all other melees are frankly garbage.

Well, but see, YOUR garbage may be another person's caviar. Just because you like to play a certain way and are quite good at it doesn't mean that another person with different skills can't be quite good at a different style of melee. Your argument means nothing against the fact that human beings are all different, have different likes and dislikes and can be good at different things. Your stats and figures and DPS mean nothing if Joe over there can pick up a machete and do massive crazy damage to a hoard of zombies in a short amount of time while you stand there with your mouth open. Or, if Cynthia, little tiny thing that she is, can pick up a baseball bat and wreck holy heckfire on every zombie in sight.

Just saying...

I hate the sledge myself, and that has nothing to do with his argument that it needs some balance tweaking because of the way it works. Stats and DPS only mean nothing if you don't care about objective reality.

Joe can use a machete? Good for Joe. That has nothing to do with the potential issue of a sledgehammer being too powerful and in need of looking at.

[Khissi]

Publicado originalmente por Segovax:

That has nothing to do with the potential issue of a sledgehammer being too powerful and in need of looking at.

I agree with you! However, that word 'potential' is absolutely in play here. The fact that HE is able to do incredible things with the sledgehammer does in NO WAY mean that the Sledge is too powerful as it stands. Perking into a full Sledge build so that it works the way he states means LOTS of points spent specifically. In other words, you PAY to have that hammer work the way he's talking about. Other weapons are the same. Folks say that junk turrets are too powerful when a person has spent lots of points to max the things out, have two running at the same time and are doing crazy amounts of damage.

My point is that his research is flawed. Being able to do what he's talking about with the sledge means that he is lacking points in many other areas. Balance is a delicate thing, especially as solo and multi-player modes differ so much and most people won't be patient enough to absolutely test such things. But I do know that TFP did a very fine job balancing weapons with their perk system. That was my argument. Flawed research does not make a flawed argument valid.

[No emaN]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Spears are the worst of all melee weapons, slow firing rate, low damage, high stamina cost, no stun.

Guns obviously are stronger than the sledgehammer but they cost ammo, sledge costs literally nothing.

You have issues I'm just gonna say it out right. Spears are ridiculously broken when compared to a sledgehammer. With just three stone spears I killed my second bloodmoon horde in my other game in my Strength run (I had no investment & a few irradiated and mostly ferals mind you). Spears have minimal stamina game, have much longer range, decent dps, and quite literally can be thrown and spam crafted if needed.

When does a Sledgehammer not cost anything? A Sledgehammer's stamina game is just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke without investment. One swing could cost you a fight early on. You just threw on the 100% knockdown and started complaining with a brute force weapon. Just don't bother using it if it's so easy for you. A slow attack rate with a high stamina cost with the trade off being a high base dmg. Even its range is laughable compared to a Spear. When using a Sledgehammer I might be able to knock everything down at the later stages of the game it doesn't mean that you'll demolish everything.

I find it easier to kill with other melee weapons as they're all just as powerful in the right hands. It seems that you aren't those hands that those weapons seek. The Sledgehammer is the knockdown king, but the Spear is the master of range and manipulation. The bladed weapons are just horde demolishers but kept in check at closer ranges. Blunt clubs tend to just be an all around to me decent range, stagger, damage, and speed it has everything. I haven't tried the Stun prod under intellect cause it didn't seem to interest me in the slightest. I'm not an expert at this game, but melee is my bread and butter. I've used melee for the longest of time in this game even when it was "♥♥♥♥". Try using the sledge without the perks then come talking to me after you've cleared horde after horde with it with no investment. Stone is the baby version, use Iron cause that's all we used to have. No Sexual Tyrannosaurus learn the risks of a weapon before you nullify them with crutches.

[Uscari]

Publicado originalmente por No emaN:

You have issues I'm just gonna say it out right. Spears are ridiculously broken when compared to a sledgehammer. With just three stone spears I killed my second bloodmoon horde in my other game in my Strength run (I had no investment & a few irradiated and mostly ferals mind you). Spears have minimal stamina game, have much longer range, decent dps, and quite literally can be thrown and spam crafted if needed.

You can hold off your second horde with a primitive bow, try throwing and picking up spears against a real horde. Spear throws count as a power attack, so you have to spend roughly the stamina of a normal power attack, and your stamina is stunted. You can use up stamina and time charging up a single attack that doesn't even kill anything, or you can use a sledge hammer, kill something, and knock down the rest of them.

Publicado originalmente por No emaN:

When does a Sledgehammer not cost anything? A Sledgehammer's stamina game is just a ♥♥♥♥ing joke without investment. One swing could cost you a fight early on. You just threw on the 100% knockdown and started complaining with a brute force weapon. Just don't bother using it if it's so easy for you. A slow attack rate with a high stamina cost with the trade off being a high base dmg. Even its range is laughable compared to a Spear. When using a Sledgehammer I might be able to knock everything down at the later stages of the game it doesn't mean that you'll demolish everything.

Why would I use a melee I didn't invest points in? The main problems with the sledge hammer are mitigated almost entirely by Sexual Tyrannosaurus. You gain like 30 stamina for every kill and every swing is a kill. You can power attack indefinitely using this weapon with the right armor and consumables. Meanwhile the Spear becomes absolutely worthless later in the game because it won't kill anything, takes forever to charge, and employ's no crowd control.

Publicado originalmente por No emaN:

I find it easier to kill with other melee weapons as they're all just as powerful in the right hands. It seems that you aren't those hands that those weapons seek. The Sledgehammer is the knockdown king, but the Spear is the master of range and manipulation. The bladed weapons are just horde demolishers but kept in check at closer ranges. Blunt clubs tend to just be an all around to me decent range, stagger, damage, and speed it has everything. I haven't tried the Stun prod under intellect cause it didn't seem to interest me in the slightest. I'm not an expert at this game, but melee is my bread and butter. I've used melee for the longest of time in this game even when it was "♥♥♥♥". Try using the sledge without the perks then come talking to me after you've cleared horde after horde with it with no investment. Stone is the baby version, use Iron cause that's all we used to have. No Sexual Tyrannosaurus learn the risks of a weapon before you nullify them with crutches.

Bladed weapons inflict a DoT effect on a single target at a time, making them worthless. They used to be good with the higher decapitation effect and AoE bleed effect, but now they really don't do anything.

Clubs are alright but not as good as sledge hammers.

Stun baton is garbage because it doesn't fully stun zombies and it takes like 4 hits just to charge.

Once again why would I not put perks into the melee weapon of choice? I'm talking about end-game potential, and the Sledge hammer is the only melee weapon that really holds up in high game stage against irradiated and feral zombies, especially for Tier V quests. Baseball bat can do it but not without a gun. Blades require even more ammo. Forget using fists and batons altogether they really don't do anything.

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Bladed weapons inflict a DoT effect on a single target at a time, making them worthless. They used to be good with the higher decapitation effect and AoE bleed effect, but now they really don't do anything.

Bladed attacks can inflict up to 6 copies of the bleed dot on a single target at a time with the power attack- You can inflict this dot on as many creatures as you stab, though, and can have it active on upwards of 16 zombies if you're skillful and quick about it. Basically apply it to as many zombies as you can before the first dot would wear off. (Edit: For clarification: The skill enables an extra stack of bleed on any given target; At skill 5 it enables up to 6- Power attack always inflicts the maximum number of bleed stacks; 100% chancec.)

By far the highest potential dps of any weapon in the game except explosives. In return though, it has essentially zero crowd control to speak of. Absolutely not worthless; Just not stupid simple to implement it's effects, and not as effective on just one or two targets.

[Uscari]

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Bladed weapons inflict a DoT effect on a single target at a time, making them worthless. They used to be good with the higher decapitation effect and AoE bleed effect, but now they really don't do anything.

Bladed attacks can inflict up to 6 copies of the bleed dot on a single target at a time with the power attack- You can inflict this dot on as many creatures as you stab, though, and can have it active on upwards of 16 zombies if you're skillful and quick about it. Basically apply it to as many zombies as you can before the first dot would wear off. (Edit: For clarification: The skill enables an extra stack of bleed on any given target; At skill 5 it enables up to 6- Power attack always inflicts the maximum number of bleed stacks; 100% chancec.)

By far the highest potential dps of any weapon in the game except explosives. In return though, it has essentially zero crowd control to speak of. Absolutely not worthless; Just not stupid simple to implement it's effects, and not as effective on just one or two targets.

Wait, so you're saying 1 power attack can apply 6 bleed effects simultaneously?

I thought it meant that you can apply up to 6 bleed effects, but can only apply one effect at a time.

If that's the case, I may have misjudged blades, that could be viable for a horde melee base. I had something like that back in alpha 17.

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Wait, so you're saying 1 power attack can apply 6 bleed effects simultaneously?

I thought it meant that you can apply up to 6 bleed effects, but can only apply one effect at a time.

If that's the case, I may have misjudged blades, that could be viable for a horde melee base. I had something like that back in alpha 17.

Yep.
From the skill description: "You can inflict up to X bleeding wounds on an enemy, and a power attack inflicts X". Power attack guarantees application of maximum stack size.

[Uscari]

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Wait, so you're saying 1 power attack can apply 6 bleed effects simultaneously?

I thought it meant that you can apply up to 6 bleed effects, but can only apply one effect at a time.

If that's the case, I may have misjudged blades, that could be viable for a horde melee base. I had something like that back in alpha 17.

Yep.
From the skill description: "You can inflict up to X bleeding wounds on an enemy, and a power attack inflicts X". Power attack guarantees application of maximum stack size.

Interesting.

Well, I stand corrected, blades are at least competitive against sledge.

Still not convinced about clubs, stun batons, fists, or spears.

[Shurenai]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Yep.
From the skill description: "You can inflict up to X bleeding wounds on an enemy, and a power attack inflicts X". Power attack guarantees application of maximum stack size.

Interesting.

Well, I stand corrected, blades are at least competitive against sledge.

Still not convinced about clubs, stun batons, fists, or spears.

I already said my part 'bout fists earlier in the thread. I fully think they're competetive. But no sense arguin bout it.

To me, fists are by far my favorite melee weapon and every time I use em I just stomp through things effortlessly; Meanwhile i find the sledge to be way too clunky to be worth my time. To each their own.

[Segovax]

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Yep.
From the skill description: "You can inflict up to X bleeding wounds on an enemy, and a power attack inflicts X". Power attack guarantees application of maximum stack size.

Interesting.

Well, I stand corrected, blades are at least competitive against sledge.

Still not convinced about clubs, stun batons, fists, or spears.

I don't like the way sledge handles so I go with baseball bat. I agree sledge is potentially more powerful but it's just not my thing. Fists and beer are stupid OP right now, even compared to sledge. Spear and stun baton are good early on but once you can perk into other skills they don't measure up imo.

I really wish they would make stun baton more inline with other weapons tbh, because it would make the int build less of a secondary necessity and more of a primary option. Maybe give the T4 and T5 perk for stun baton have an AE stun chance and chain lightning damage effects.

[Sir Duckyweather]

Publicado originalmente por Shurenai:

Publicado originalmente por Uscari:

Wait, so you're saying 1 power attack can apply 6 bleed effects simultaneously?

I thought it meant that you can apply up to 6 bleed effects, but can only apply one effect at a time.

If that's the case, I may have misjudged blades, that could be viable for a horde melee base. I had something like that back in alpha 17.

Yep.
From the skill description: "You can inflict up to X bleeding wounds on an enemy, and a power attack inflicts X". Power attack guarantees application of maximum stack size.

Actually, if I'm remembering right, with A18.2 b5 they increased the maximum stacks by 1 but left the amount added by power attack the same. So, for instance, if you wanted max stacks on an enemy, you have to hit it with both a power attack and a regular attack. I guess they wanted to buff the potential damage output without increasing it automatically with a single hit.

Also that same update added a movement speed debuff to your bleeds, making knives even better at kiting and more appealing if you love enfeebling enemies in games.