Lets talk about Stun Batons

[Drake Ravenwolf]

I've never really used them as a serious weapon... does anyone here actually main them?
They seem to do pathetic melee damage and their big selling point - the shock stun doesn't even fire off on every attack, at best it'd be every 3rd swing, but more often worse than that... did I get all that right?

So here's what I did for my version of the Stun Baton:

-Gave it the EntityDamage & BlockDamage of the T1CandyClub - this makes it better than the T0PipeBaton but not as good as the T3SteelClub (at least in raw damage)
It just makes no sense to me that the T2StunBaton would have lower damage than the T0PipeBaton

-Gave it the lower StaminaLoss of the T0PipeBaton

-Set the ShockedDuration to always be 1 second, with no perk increase. But also set it to trigger on every swing so there is no charge up

-Changed the 2ndary effect of the perks to instead be similar to the Sledgehammer's AoE Knockdown effect; Stun Batons have the same chance to apply at perk tiers 3,4,5 but changed the effect to Shock instead of Knockdown (again with a 1 second duration)
I also gave all perk tiers from 2+ a 15% chance for a slightly lesser AoE shock on normal attacks.

-I left the AttacksPerMinute the same; this creates a nice continuum (imo) from Sledgehammers -> Clubs -> Stun Baton going from higher Damage-per-Hit to faster Hits-per-Minute. I also didn't change the Repulsor Mod nor the Nerd Tats interactions (tho again, all Shock durations should only be 1 second)

And that gives me: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2407

I feel the damage and shock duration are just about right... the 2ndary perk effects might be tuned further, but I'm happy with the end result.
If I wanted to "nerf" this modified version; I'd restore the default StaminaLoss, and halve the AoE perk proc chance...

How would you balance the Stun Baton?

[RasaNova]

One of the forum regulars a while ago made a video of fighting a late game insane difficulty 64 count horde night, on foot using nothing but a stun baton.

I still don't personally like them. Even with an INT build I don't use them, but I do have respect for them.

[Drake Ravenwolf]

Escrito originalmente por RasaNova:

One of the forum regulars a while ago made a video of fighting a late game insane difficulty 64 count horde night, on foot using nothing but a stun baton.

I still don't personally like them. Even with an INT build I don't use them, but I do have respect for them.

Ya, def doesn't sound properly balanced, I'll have a go at making my own alterations to it then

[MoistGamer]

I give all the credit in the world to those that have the creativity and gumption to play a certain way just because, or to try a new build, or whatever. Until the ammunition is less plentiful in both lootability and craftability terms, I'll use ranged weapons from day 3 on and never look back.

Stun batons like most other melee weapons are trader fodder, lvl 6 being especially juicy in the area of 2k dukes with barter maxed and a cigar.

I appreciate the creativity but as of now I see no reason to voluntarily get closer to a zed than I have to. With 1000 rounds in your pocket and several thousand more back at home, range is king until they give me a reason to do otherwise. The noise and zed draw that the firearms create is more than welcome, the hindrance noise is supposed to be ends up being more than a treat.

Again - to those who do it just because or to try it, I get it and appreciate that. It just doesnt tickle my jimmies personally.

[Drake Ravenwolf]

So here's what I'm thinking for my version of the stun baton:

Give it the EntityDamage & BlockDamage of the T1CandyClub - this makes it better than the T0PipeBaton but not as good as the T3SteelClub (at least in raw damage)
It just makes no sense to me that the T2StunBaton would have lower damage than the T0PipeBaton

Give it the lower StaminaLoss of the T0PipeBaton, because why would it take more stamina to swing a stun stick than a metal baton?

Set the ShockedDuration to always be 1 second, no perk increase
But also set it to trigger on every swing so there is no charge up

Edit the 2ndary effect of the perk to instead be... idk the sledgehammer effect?

[Leconte]

most people believe raw damage output as the only thing that matters in a weapon, so they see stun baton as ♥♥♥♥.

[RasaNova]

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

So here's what I'm thinking for my version of the stun baton:

Give it the EntityDamage & BlockDamage of the T1CandyClub - this makes it better than the T0PipeBaton but not as good as the T3SteelClub (at least in raw damage)
It just makes no sense to me that the T2StunBaton would have lower damage than the T0PipeBaton

Give it the lower StaminaLoss of the T0PipeBaton, because why would it take more stamina to swing a stun stick than a metal baton?

Set the ShockedDuration to always be 1 second, no perk increase
But also set it to trigger on every swing so there is no charge up

Edit the 2ndary effect of the perk to instead be... idk the sledgehammer effect?

The thing is, the stun baton and the pipe baton aren't really the same weapon and trying to tweak things to be more realistic might throw off balance more than fix it. Think of it as like the 9mm vs the smg. They're both governed by mechanics for 9mm and pistol weapons, and one is the more "advanced" version of the other, but they behave very differently.

Stun baton is often judged by it's damage output, but raw dps isn't the reason to use it. Meanwhile the pipe baton has no charge effect but slightly higher dps, its only real function is an early game INT weapon (which INT never used to have.) The stun baton with its associated perks and boosts is already considered OP by many (and sure, useless by others who want dps.) Your edited version sounds like an attempt to make it a more viable club at the cost of being a less viable CC weapon, which is kinda opposite of what its supposed to be - so I would suggest trying it with a build focused around it before changing things around.

But then again, its your game so play however you want, if that means more of a standard club with a bit of zap, go for it.

[Drake Ravenwolf]

Escrito originalmente por RasaNova:

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

So here's what I'm thinking for my version of the stun baton:

Give it the EntityDamage & BlockDamage of the T1CandyClub - this makes it better than the T0PipeBaton but not as good as the T3SteelClub (at least in raw damage)
It just makes no sense to me that the T2StunBaton would have lower damage than the T0PipeBaton

Give it the lower StaminaLoss of the T0PipeBaton, because why would it take more stamina to swing a stun stick than a metal baton?

Set the ShockedDuration to always be 1 second, no perk increase
But also set it to trigger on every swing so there is no charge up

Edit the 2ndary effect of the perk to instead be... idk the sledgehammer effect?

The thing is, the stun baton and the pipe baton aren't really the same weapon and trying to tweak things to be more realistic might throw off balance more than fix it. Think of it as like the 9mm vs the smg. They're both governed by mechanics for 9mm and pistol weapons, and one is the more "advanced" version of the other, but they behave very differently.

Stun baton is often judged by it's damage output, but raw dps isn't the reason to use it. Meanwhile the pipe baton has no charge effect but slightly higher dps, its only real function is an early game INT weapon (which INT never used to have.) The stun baton with its associated perks and boosts is already considered OP by many (and sure, useless by others who want dps.) Your edited version sounds like an attempt to make it a more viable club at the cost of being a less viable CC weapon, which is kinda opposite of what its supposed to be - so I would suggest trying it with a build focused around it before changing things around.

But then again, its your game so play however you want, if that means more of a standard club with a bit of zap, go for it.

Actually the devs consider the T3DesertVulture and the T3SMG5 to both be T3s, but I do imagine Stun Batons should be on the continuum of melee weapons rather than being off on their own as it kinda is now. The T0PipeBaton just seems so useless to me; if you want to use a club... use a club.

In my mind Stun Baton should neither be an OP CC tool, nor an underpowered damage dealer, so I fixed it :)
https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2407

[WillowWisp]

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

Escrito originalmente por RasaNova:

The thing is, the stun baton and the pipe baton aren't really the same weapon and trying to tweak things to be more realistic might throw off balance more than fix it. Think of it as like the 9mm vs the smg. They're both governed by mechanics for 9mm and pistol weapons, and one is the more "advanced" version of the other, but they behave very differently.

Stun baton is often judged by it's damage output, but raw dps isn't the reason to use it. Meanwhile the pipe baton has no charge effect but slightly higher dps, its only real function is an early game INT weapon (which INT never used to have.) The stun baton with its associated perks and boosts is already considered OP by many (and sure, useless by others who want dps.) Your edited version sounds like an attempt to make it a more viable club at the cost of being a less viable CC weapon, which is kinda opposite of what its supposed to be - so I would suggest trying it with a build focused around it before changing things around.

But then again, its your game so play however you want, if that means more of a standard club with a bit of zap, go for it.

Actually the devs consider the T3DesertVulture and the T3SMG5 to both be T3s, but I do imagine Stun Batons should be on the continuum of melee weapons rather than being off on their own as it kinda is now. The T0PipeBaton just seems so useless to me; if you want to use a club... use a club.

In my mind Stun Baton should neither be an OP CC tool, nor an underpowered damage dealer, so I fixed it :)
https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2407

See, the thing I think the pipe baton has over the club is, it has more reach, you don't have to get as close to the zombies as you do with a club to deal a solid hit. That's why I tend to find myself maining batons personally, especially in the early game

(note: I haven't looked at the code or anything to back this up, this is just how it feels to me personally when I play using a baton vs using a club)

[Drake Ravenwolf]

Escrito originalmente por WillowWisp:

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

Actually the devs consider the T3DesertVulture and the T3SMG5 to both be T3s, but I do imagine Stun Batons should be on the continuum of melee weapons rather than being off on their own as it kinda is now. The T0PipeBaton just seems so useless to me; if you want to use a club... use a club.

In my mind Stun Baton should neither be an OP CC tool, nor an underpowered damage dealer, so I fixed it :)
https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2407

See, the thing I think the pipe baton has over the club is, it has more reach, you don't have to get as close to the zombies as you do with a club to deal a solid hit. That's why I tend to find myself maining batons personally, especially in the early game

(note: I haven't looked at the code or anything to back this up, this is just how it feels to me personally when I play using a baton vs using a club)

As far as I can see the wooden club, baseball bat, and pipe baton all have a MaxRange of 2.4 and a BlockRange of 3.

[JimmyIowa]

I tried a pure INT combat build in A20, and it feels like the absolute strongest tree for easy combat already. Not just because the stun baton is OP, but also INT is the only tree where you can be using the ranged weapons (turrets) and melee weapons at the same time. In other words, take agility as an example, you can't be wielding 2 magnums and a machete all at once. Only INT allows that. Junk turrets combined with the stun baton is quite over the top, both for poi clearing and horde night.

Stun baton is the best in the game at crowd control in my tests. Yes, better than the sledge. I tried some tests on insane difficulty, where I spawn 5 irradiated bikers in a 20x20 concrete arena, then jump in with just a melee weapon to see how much damage I take before I kill all 5 of them. (Kiting and healing bleeds with med bandages is allowed) I mainly started out trying to compare steel sledge and steel knuckles. But then decided to run a set of 20 trials with the stun baton too.

With both sledgehammer, and knuckles I died or came very close to dying many times. With stun baton I took them down easily every single time, sometimes not taking any damage at all because keeping them all flopping helplessly around on the ground is pretty much effortless while they die. No kiting, no strategy, no buffs to keep stamina up, just standing there clicking LMB.

Buffing by far the best melee weapon in the game wouldn't be "fixing" anything, imo. If I changed anything about the stun baton it would be the bright flashing blue-white light filling the entire right side of my screen while wielding it. One of the main things I don't like about it. But buffing its combat effectiveness is sort of wildly uneeded, imo.

[Macdallan]

Escrito originalmente por Midas:

Escrito originalmente por Macdallan:

Yeah, I know. It's video game logic. Zombies/infected that might have different responses to a 0.1 second long electric shock. Blah, blah, blah. Those are just excuses to have a silly weapon in the game (yeah, I also know there are a plethora of other silly things in the game - I hate most of them, too). Movies, games, TV almost always get Tasers/CEWs wrong, just like they almost always get defibrillator's wrong. Also, isn't the Intellect feat list good enough without adding a silly stun baton? Aren't all the ridiculous robots enough? Does every single stat have to affect a weapon or weapons? (Answer: No.)

Every stat needs a melee weapon. Stat/perk investment is like 70% of what makes any melee weapon actually effective, which is why every time someone starts this kind of thread, it's invariably because they're just trying the weapon out without an associated build. Every weapon is trash if you aren't invested in it. Every weapon is amazing if you are invested in it. Beyond that, it's just the quirks of the specific weapons, and for the stun baton, that's stun-locking and rag-dolling enemies.

No, every stat does not need a melee weapon - or any weapon for that matter. The stat system is a mess as is the perk system.

I spent a massive amount of time using a 9mm pistol with no points in the related stat. Also used a pipe baton (tonfa) for a long time with only a couple points in the associated stat. Also used a rifle with no points in the associated stat. Did just fine. All the stats do is make the associated weapons too good, overpowered, and turn the game into easy mode because you crit or dismember or stun everything in one hit. So yeah, I agree that the weapons are "amazing" if you invest in the stat because they become overpowered. I'd prefer if the stat weapon bonuses were removed, or at least if the bonuses the stats give to weapons were not so overpowered. It's too much.

Escrito originalmente por mathaniel:

But my money is on stun batons being effective in RL as well as in this game, no matter what naysayers or expurts in the field may say.

What I was getting at is that you have to hit several criteria for NMI to happen and they would not do that given the way they're designed and used in the game. They might do something else that causes some kind of effect that's going to briefly incapacitate the enemy and cause an effect that's similar to NMI.

[Macdallan]

Escrito originalmente por WillowWisp:

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

Actually the devs consider the T3DesertVulture and the T3SMG5 to both be T3s, but I do imagine Stun Batons should be on the continuum of melee weapons rather than being off on their own as it kinda is now. The T0PipeBaton just seems so useless to me; if you want to use a club... use a club.

In my mind Stun Baton should neither be an OP CC tool, nor an underpowered damage dealer, so I fixed it :)
https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/2407

See, the thing I think the pipe baton has over the club is, it has more reach, you don't have to get as close to the zombies as you do with a club to deal a solid hit. That's why I tend to find myself maining batons personally, especially in the early game

(note: I haven't looked at the code or anything to back this up, this is just how it feels to me personally when I play using a baton vs using a club)

I use the pipe baton as my main melee. Seems to work just fine and I'm on day 107 or so. Easy to find a pipe to fix it, too. I don't have any of the melee perks that boost it either. It would be even more effective if I did.

[Midas]

Escrito originalmente por Macdallan:

Escrito originalmente por Midas:

Every stat needs a melee weapon. Stat/perk investment is like 70% of what makes any melee weapon actually effective, which is why every time someone starts this kind of thread, it's invariably because they're just trying the weapon out without an associated build. Every weapon is trash if you aren't invested in it. Every weapon is amazing if you are invested in it. Beyond that, it's just the quirks of the specific weapons, and for the stun baton, that's stun-locking and rag-dolling enemies.

No, every stat does not need a melee weapon - or any weapon for that matter. The stat system is a mess as is the perk system.

Then you clearly haven't played very far or on very high difficulties, because on insane at anything past the earliest points of the game, every melee weapon is bad if you aren't invested in it, and every weapon is good if you have invested in it. And I've actually played every single stat into the late-game to verify this first-hand.

Ranged weapons are not as big a factor. Those work decently well regardless, mainly because they don't cost stamina, so you don't have to worry about the efficiency ratio of damage output to stamina cost when you might also have to be sprinting around to avoid zombies in close quarters. Guns don't have these issues, so lacking investment is far less pronounced a drawback.

[Drake Ravenwolf]

It just occured to me... every tag I've seen in the definition of the Stun Baton and its functions has been "zombie,animal" ... does it not work on Humans?

Looking back at the code, it does look like at least the AoE component for the repulsor and shocked buff cannot be applied to Humans if they were not the primary target, is that weird? Maybe its cause they couldn't prevent friendly fire otherwise?

[WillowWisp]

Escrito originalmente por Drake Ravenwolf:

It just occured to me... every tag I've seen in the definition of the Stun Baton and its functions has been "zombie,animal" ... does it not work on Humans?

Looking back at the code, it does look like at least the AoE component for the repulsor and shocked buff cannot be applied to Humans if they were not the primary target, is that weird? Maybe its cause they couldn't prevent friendly fire otherwise?

That is weird, especially since the shock buff can definitely be applied to humans, just gotta hit a working vending machine to learn that one