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Sorry! I couldn't resist...
And yes, in A21 they're also adding themed loot for containers and POIs. I'm looking forward to that too! The "story" of a building is also told through the scene you're presented when you go in... did you ever notice that you can often tell what happen there or what the POI was used for just by looking around?
EDIT : I completed the MOD called Darkness Falls and I am now embarking on AGE OF OBLIVION. The quality of the loot we get in these Mods is out of this world. Truly interesting loot.
Oh, the environmental story telling is alright, for sure!
Honestly I'm coming off a life time of other games, and in one sense it's not fair to compare one game to another, in another sense, such things clearly have their influences too.
I was somewhat forced to think about what makes me compelled to loot in other games, if I use Fallout for example, the loot is also quite often generic, often one delves into the POIs for more bullets than they will spend getting in and out, but such places also sometimes offer exclusive and thematic loot, and lore dumps, both of which tend to be what pushes the decision to enter over the edge.
But then we have to be fair and acknowledge that Fallout as a franchise has a much bigger budget, among other things.
So help me I have no idea what possessed me to ever explore F3's downtown ruins..
I'll have to look into those mods.
I'm playing with a group of 8, so it's tough to convince others of doing anything but vanilla, and we've all been trying to get familiar with vanilla first before thinking about trying anything else.
As a minecrafter, I'm not much of an explorer at all, I prefer to settle and build, which of course 7DtD and the development team appear very hostile to, making that a grind so people are compelled to keep on the move and loot and explore.
If you're familiar with the psychological concept of Push/Pull, they have the push part sorted, but I find the pull very lacking.
Now, I don't play Fallout expecting Minecraft, so I do have experience in looter shooter types of games too, but 7DtD sits somewhere in the middle here, and given a choice, looting doesn't take my fancy unless it's actually interesting to do.
After about 300+ hours or so, both settling and looting, I can safely say that looting in the base game so far is not very interesting.
The same generic loot, the same generic enemy, the same generic lack of story.
And I am still wondering what the story reason is for so many bikers in the basement of Crack A Book tower, but of course I know that's just tied to game stage.
I'm also not a big fan of using mods to fix a poor vanilla game experience, after several years of Bethesda's hostility I don't believe anyone should be forgiven for relying so heavily on a modding community to fix an experience.
But again, I'll take you up on those mod suggestions, 7DtD is actually quite fun, it just needs some love.
I do agree that they need to work on the loot tables a bit. We should usually find at least a little more loot that is associated to the type of building we are searching than we do now. Some buildings seem better than others, though. I know one clothing store and one pharmacy seem to have a really good amount of location specific loot compared to many of the other buildings. They both seem like they're almost too generous, though, and the useful items probably need to be toned down a bit. I know I've found things I really need unexpectedly in garbage or other random locations instead of when I spent days searching a dozen buildings where the items would likely be located. Who knows why things are where they are, though. Maybe other people who didn't survive took those items when the whole thing started and they ended up stashing them in a toilet for safe keeping, or dropping them on the street next to some trash. Heck, maybe all the zombies get bored during the blood moon if they're not in the horde attacking you and they wander around moving things into strange locations.
I know it would be nice to find books more frequently, and find more books that you need rather than repeats, but if they make it too easy to find them all then you would unlock everything in no time and there would be no challenge to it. I really think it's a bit too easy to find books right now. Why? Because I have a ridiculous number of books in my current solo game. What's a ridiculous number? Not sure but I've got two full storage boxes of them (not the little chests- the larger boxes) and a third box that I've started to fill up. The same book will stack so I've got multiples of almost every one of them. I've also sold a huge number of books to traders and I'd guess the number I've sold is probably about half of what I have in storage. With that kind of collection built up after about 115 game days I can't possibly justify an argument that we need to find books with more ease than we do now. Keep in mind that you can also buy books at the traders so you have options other than looting to obtain them.
I don't mind finding the same things over and over all that much because most items have a use, even if that use is just to sell to a trader or to craft items you sell to the traders. Worst case scenario? I really don't need it so I throw it out of the container and it disappears forever in about a minute.
You mean if the giant signs in front of most of them don't give the building's primary "use" away immediately, right?
I'm mostly kidding. I think they did a fairly good job of showing what happened each different building, or what the building was used for.
AFAIK the story will be some environmentally telling of how the apocalypse came about and a future story about the fight between two factions and you choosing which faction wins.
Nothing fancy, nothing on the scale of fallout.
If I'm being brutally honest, the game is not challenging, it is tedious.
I too have chests filled with books, it's just hard to find the book I actually need.
I would love to make pretend about other survivors, or bored zombies, but at that point it's yet another example of entertainment in spite of the development effort, not because of it.
I don't know how much of an earner 7DtD is, but if I go by the assumption it is an indie title, the first game of a dev team, and a small dev team at that, I make the effort to be as fair as I can be and limit expectations.
That in mind, I wasn't going to touch on the linear pathing for POIs, honestly so many games have a linear enough dungeon sequence that it's not something that really bothers me;
If anything is at fault for zombie non reaction there, it's the entire voxel based building aspect allowing players to circumvent sequential triggers.
IF I were to come at this game with relentless expectation, I would say it needs more enemy types, and more differing enemy AI behaviours.
In a Fallout POI, part of the story is what enemy has claimed it, and part of the challenge is meeting the enemy with the right equipment.
A player might go so far as to stop and question "the hell are raiders doing in mutant territory?!", and that moment is somewhat of an important one in terms of making a player think and engage with the story.
As my original post admits, there's plenty to love and praise about 7DtD, but there's bundles of room for improvement.
And to your point, "you would unlock everything in no time", I don't even know why that's a concern, the game has plenty of replay value, other games survive being "unlocked in no time", the point is fun and enjoyment, not to think like a robot and say a game is good because of its "core gameplay loop", i.e "quest, loot, survive horde day, repeat".
For a good horde base design you need time and experimentation, so if you had the best equipment by day 7 or 14 and want to start over, where could you ever find the tower defense part of the game? And yes, for me this is part of the fun and enjoyment of the game, it doesn't need to be for everyone though.
If you want the game to be over in 2 weeks to start over, just set xp gain to 400%, loot abundance to 200%. There are people who play the game like that and it seems to be okay for them.
I'd have replied earlier but I truly don't know how to respond to either of your posts.
Horde base design is laughably simple, doubly so if one watches youtube for advice on it.
And the reason it makes me laugh, is because it's typically just an incredibly dumbed down version of historic castle design, something I know a bit about.
Many people seem to rely on making the same structures as each other for optimal horde survival.
But it's really not what I have an issue with in the slightest.
It's the looting of POIs, as per the title, it's incredibly generic, and yet the game favours it, is geared towards it, geared against my own preferred style of play, despite being a voxel game marketed as a sandbox.
Story wise I am also quite aware of what to expect in the end, I'm saying they'd do better to focus on it, for the sake of making what they want players to do interesting.
And so help me, I utterly despise "core gameplay loops", and what younger players today are willing to accept, there are many people with the audacity to say "I beat X game!", and accept the circle jerk of doing one thing to do another thing just to do the third thing to repeat it over again.. That's called monotony, not fun.
(A hot take from a woman who has previously enjoyed cracking walnuts for hours on end.)
Why do you despise core gameplay loops? All games have them. You can't really name any that don't. It's how games work. There's always something you do repeatedly.
I know the game can become tedious and it doesn't feel challenging most of the time on standard difficulty settings. If you find it boring you have a couple choices. The first one is to play something else. The second is to adjust some setting or start trying out some overhaul mods. I doubt you can honestly call the game easy on the maximum difficulty setting, 25% loot, no loot respawn, no air drops, nightly blood moon, all zeds move at nightmare speed all the time, all zeds have feral senses, zed block damage 200%, and your block damage 25%. Don't use traders at all, don't use trader missions to re-set buildings. Good luck with that.
Yes, it shouldn't be easy to find every book you want. You're complaining that you want something to be easier, yet also complain the game isn't challenging enough. If you think books should be easier to find then either find a mod that does that, mod the game yourself, or set loot to the maximum %. Buy the perks that have looting, treasure, trader reward, and trader "secret stash" improvements.
7 Days to die was a great earner, still sells fairly well if the info on the internet is accurate. Just google it and you can find some info.
You say the game is tedious but have no problem with the game having linear POI paths? A single intended route? So you think it's fine for the developer to expect players to do each POI in the same way every time? That kind of contradicts your compliant about the game being tedious, doesn't it?
The voxel based system is not at fault for the issues with zombies not reacting or the obvious traps and triggers, the poorly designed detection, triggers, and traps are the problem here. The way zombies detect, or fail to detect, both noise and player presence is at fault. The entire game has been built with voxels at the core so they should have better systems in place by now to deal with the fact that we can, and often will, smash through something instead of going through the intended routes. Heck, having an obviously intended path in a voxel based game where everything can be destroyed is also part of the problem here.
I do agree that better AI and more enemy variety would be a good thing. Bandit NPCs are planned. That might help with this issue.
I guarantee you that if it was easier to find books you would unlock everything too quickly and the game would become even less of a challenge than it is now. If you unlock skills, perks, stats, and better crafting recipes too soon, too easily, then there's no sense of accomplishment. Boost loot to 200%, make loot respawn faster, and crank up your XP gain and you'll see exactly what I mean.
Games shouldn't just hand you everything too early or too easily. Too many games do that these days, they give the player instant gratification (or let them pay to win which is even worse) versus actually requiring a player to put in a bit of effort to get what they want or need in the game world. I do agree that this game's focus seems to have shifted too much toward looting and completing trader missions. It used to be more of a crafting sandbox experience than it is now and I think that's hurting the game.
One of your comments indicates that there's plenty of replay value, but once again I have to point out you have called the game tedious and complained about the "core game loop." You made some very rude comments about circle jerks and being a robot but there's nothing wrong with repeating a "core game loop" because that's what you do in every single game in existence. Why? Because the core gameplay loop is the game. Whether that's looting focused or crafting focus isn't the point here, no matter what activities you're meant to undertake it's all part of that loop. I can't understand why you're being so rude and negative about that, yet at the same time saying the game has a lot of replay value. The replay value comes from having a solid core gameplay loop.
"That safe was ridiculously easy to open, doubly so after someone told me the combination"
;-))
Spot the problem.
I'm not saying horde base design is especially hard, but if you watch youtube videos to find out the optimal base designs and dozens of small secrets, you practically removed half the fun of base building.
The other half starts after you have found out how it all works, then try out dozens of ideas for different base designs. Which I would call the optional sandbox part.
No, not except brass - either get rid of it or not. You can find brass in a huge amount of other places so it's no more necessary than the other ore. It's also logical that someone, at some point, collected and stored metal items and that you find them in various locations.
This. All of this. 100% on the mark, meganoth.
Yeah, this is pretty spot on, too. This game on standard setting has become quite easy, even easier for those of us with a lot of play time or a good understanding of the mechanics. Many of us have to tune some of the settings to get a decent challenge out of the game now, I suggest that Silhouette Fleur needs to do this as well.
With only a month under your belt you still don't have a good feel for progression in the game, or the avenues you can take to get there most efficiently. Books should not be your bullseye. But I'll take all that paper you don't want. This guy can use it.