A20.1+ Suggestion!! -- So now Pipe Weapons... XP & Leveling overhaul time at last?!

[c33tz]

Sorry TFP for being "that guy" and making 'next step' suggestions as soon as an alpha drops... but I've wanted this forever and with the introduction of Pipe weapons (which I love, among all the other massive updates) I think I can finally ask for it and it somewhat be feasible!!!

Leveling by "Doing" -- ie: Skyrim style skill leveling (for simpletons), or more precisely Mount & Blade Bannerlord Style, more what I'd love to see now that the framework is in place.

For those unaware, basically to increase immersion and 'realistically' shape your character's growth based on what you actually do (ie: you don't beat up zombies with a club and suddenly become a marksman with automatics which you had never touched to date)

In a few games one levels up XP as follows:

Get XP in a specific category (sneaking, doing damage/kills with weapon type, building/crafting, sprinting, moving while encumbered, using/crafting first-aid, looting crates, disassembling cars, etc).


From someone elses view:
https://www.windowscentral.com/everything-you-need-know-about-skills-and-leveling-mount-blade-ii-bannerlord


From My view:

M&B Bannerlord style leveling still allows you to 'spec' into specific trees as a 'Focus' using earned points (cumulative XP across all categories to 'level up' and gain Focus, and Attribute points to spend every level, (or few levels for attributes)... So instead of an immediate "skill get" by spending a point you earned, you add 'Focus points' to a category which both raises the maximum limit AND the XP gain rate in a specific category.

Training an attribute would boost the limits and XP gain on all items under the category (Like Strength --> boost trainable limit & XP gain rate of all strength related skills)


Now that all forms of weapons types can be access very early in the game, and the fact that the Skill layout is actually... extremely close to this method above (except for tracking individual XP bars per skill and in total), I think this might now be much more achievable than we all think!

More immersion and dynamic character building:
- I like to mine a lot, so I'll naturally be leveling mining while I do so (and faster if I choose to perk/focus myself into that tree and speicalize)

- I like machine guns, so I make a pipe gun and try to practice/use it as much as I can to level it up.

- I like to Cook...

- I like to hunt animal/carve...

- I like to do chemistry/make medicines...

- I like to tear down cars/equipment for parts...

- I like to scavenge...

- I like to sneak around at night, or go through POIs quietly dropping stealth attacks...

You get the idea... and again all of these play styles are already accomodated and promoted in the game for us to specialize in... My suggestion is to tie it into a more 'seamless' and realistic leveling mechanic that rewards usage and 'doing' as opposed to just 'getting' the skills based on generic XP alone.

This will 'slow' progress of course as naturally XP will be more divided among actions (but still a general XP will always be 'ticking up' as well for Focus/attribute Points), so some balancing may be needed to keep the intended 'pace' of the game the Devs want!


Food for thought!!
...Hope TFP can read this among all the BS and 12yo hating/QQ on free updates they can't even understand how much work was actually put in going on in this discussion forum lol

... Kinda wish they had a 'Votable Feature Suggestions' section on Discord or something to separate this out form the 'horde' :(

Keep up the great work TFP, amazing update and amazing Devs as always!!

[Zeekmafia]

You used to level your skills by doing in older versions of the game.

[Trooper Bri]

LBD has already been in the game, and removed as TFP never intended for it to be the leveling system for 7D2D.
This has been discussed, argued, and beaten to death. You can search for it in older posts. In short: it's never coming back. Ever.... Ever......

And technically this isn't the official 7D2D forum. So you're not being "that guy"

[Humpenstilzchen]

No thanks. I like the new system more.

[Dragonmaster]

Already existing, wasn't fun, current leveling system is fine'ish

[c33tz]

Originally posted by Trooper Bri:

LBD has already been in the game, and removed as TFP never intended for it to be the leveling system for 7D2D.
This has been discussed, argued, and beaten to death. You can search for it in older posts. In short: it's never coming back. Ever.... Ever......

And technically this isn't the official 7D2D forum. So you're not being "that guy"

Ah, haha well it seems the idea is being beaten to death still judging from the comments already, thanks for the note! I won't get my hope up...

That's a shame really. Probably wasn't 'ready' at the time it was implemented as only with A20 updates could I see it as something 'viable' (I agree in past version very unlikely to succeed)... but seems like playerbase (and Devs) have long moved on.

Maybe I can hope for a Mod for it or something to satisfy my own personal craving for more immersion (next to VR lol) :(


Appreciate the feedback from everyone nonetheless, glad I'm not "That Guy", but rather... "The Other Guy" who pitches something as if it's a new idea when in fact it was already done and failed miserably lmao (oof)

[dominicawb]

Funny how LBD systems work fantastically in other games, and it being the reason why people ask for it again here.

[rincewind]

Originally posted by c33tz:

Originally posted by Trooper Bri:

LBD has already been in the game, and removed as TFP never intended for it to be the leveling system for 7D2D.
This has been discussed, argued, and beaten to death. You can search for it in older posts. In short: it's never coming back. Ever.... Ever......

And technically this isn't the official 7D2D forum. So you're not being "that guy"

Ah, haha well it seems the idea is being beaten to death still judging from the comments already, thanks for the note! I won't get my hope up...

That's a shame really. Probably wasn't 'ready' at the time it was implemented as only with A20 updates could I see it as something 'viable' (I agree in past version very unlikely to succeed)... but seems like playerbase (and Devs) have long moved on.

Maybe I can hope for a Mod for it or something to satisfy my own personal craving for more immersion (next to VR lol) :(


Appreciate the feedback from everyone nonetheless, glad I'm not "That Guy", but rather... "The Other Guy" who pitches something as if it's a new idea when in fact it was already done and failed miserably lmao (oof)

Speaking of mods, Darkness Fall has a level by doing system. Mixed with skill points.

[....]

Originally posted by c33tz:

Sorry TFP for being "that guy" and making 'next step' suggestions as soon as an alpha drops... but I've wanted this forever and with the introduction of Pipe weapons (which I love, among all the other massive updates) I think I can finally ask for it and it somewhat be feasible!!!

Leveling by "Doing" -- ie: Skyrim style skill leveling (for simpletons), or more precisely Mount & Blade Bannerlord Style, more what I'd love to see now that the framework is in place.

For those unaware, basically to increase immersion and 'realistically' shape your character's growth based on what you actually do (ie: you don't beat up zombies with a club and suddenly become a marksman with automatics which you had never touched to date)

In a few games one levels up XP as follows:

Get XP in a specific category (sneaking, doing damage/kills with weapon type, building/crafting, sprinting, moving while encumbered, using/crafting first-aid, looting crates, disassembling cars, etc).


From someone elses view:
https://www.windowscentral.com/everything-you-need-know-about-skills-and-leveling-mount-blade-ii-bannerlord


From My view:

M&B Bannerlord style leveling still allows you to 'spec' into specific trees as a 'Focus' using earned points (cumulative XP across all categories to 'level up' and gain Focus, and Attribute points to spend every level, (or few levels for attributes)... So instead of an immediate "skill get" by spending a point you earned, you add 'Focus points' to a category which both raises the maximum limit AND the XP gain rate in a specific category.

Training an attribute would boost the limits and XP gain on all items under the category (Like Strength --> boost trainable limit & XP gain rate of all strength related skills)


Now that all forms of weapons types can be access very early in the game, and the fact that the Skill layout is actually... extremely close to this method above (except for tracking individual XP bars per skill and in total), I think this might now be much more achievable than we all think!

More immersion and dynamic character building:
- I like to mine a lot, so I'll naturally be leveling mining while I do so (and faster if I choose to perk/focus myself into that tree and speicalize)

- I like machine guns, so I make a pipe gun and try to practice/use it as much as I can to level it up.

- I like to Cook...

- I like to hunt animal/carve...

- I like to do chemistry/make medicines...

- I like to tear down cars/equipment for parts...

- I like to scavenge...

- I like to sneak around at night, or go through POIs quietly dropping stealth attacks...

You get the idea... and again all of these play styles are already accomodated and promoted in the game for us to specialize in... My suggestion is to tie it into a more 'seamless' and realistic leveling mechanic that rewards usage and 'doing' as opposed to just 'getting' the skills based on generic XP alone.

This will 'slow' progress of course as naturally XP will be more divided among actions (but still a general XP will always be 'ticking up' as well for Focus/attribute Points), so some balancing may be needed to keep the intended 'pace' of the game the Devs want!


Food for thought!!
...Hope TFP can read this among all the BS and 12yo hating/QQ on free updates they can't even understand how much work was actually put in going on in this discussion forum lol

... Kinda wish they had a 'Votable Feature Suggestions' section on Discord or something to separate this out form the 'horde' :(

Keep up the great work TFP, amazing update and amazing Devs as always!!

This thread made me lol. We already had that.

To be honest older version of the game from my point of view were superrior. The game now just feels more and more generic and on rails.

[Vapid Actions]

I think LBD systems work in some games, not in others. I personally don't want to have to craft 500 blade traps I have no intention of using, or designing a base to use, to unlock shotgun turrets. LBD systems work when there's no real time crunch. open world RPG's and the like, where you can spend time doing different things to level up x, or y. In 7DTD you might need to change up what you're doing on a dime in order to make up some sort of deficiency to survive.

We had an LBD system, and it didn't work, because it creates an extremely strong "optimal path" to take in order to survive and push. And while the current perk trees aren't perfectly balanced, there's a lot more versatility, and it doesn't have that forced routing LBD setups do under time crunches.

[Czernobog]

It's a sandbox with a loose grip on reality, as a game should be. LBD is primitive and boring.
"Immersion" is no excuse. There's dozens if not hundreds of things that could be considered unrealistic in the game.

Imma just let this workbench make an entire truck all by itself while i'm not even present.

The current experience system isn't perfect, but it's enough to allow flexibility without compromising game play.

If i wanted a realistic grind, id go live in the woods and eat pine cones.

[James]

Oddly I find LBD to be more immersion breaking in any game I've seen it in.

It turns all your actions into a weird grind where you spam actions that give the most reward in ways that are less logical than a reasonably done generic xp system.

Instead of doing quests and fighting enemies you make 1000 iron daggers that you don't want.

[GodEmperor]

I care first and foremost about bug fixes and performance improvements

[c33tz]

Originally posted by rincewind:

Originally posted by c33tz:

Ah, haha well it seems the idea is being beaten to death still judging from the comments already, thanks for the note! I won't get my hope up...

That's a shame really. Probably wasn't 'ready' at the time it was implemented as only with A20 updates could I see it as something 'viable' (I agree in past version very unlikely to succeed)... but seems like playerbase (and Devs) have long moved on.

Maybe I can hope for a Mod for it or something to satisfy my own personal craving for more immersion (next to VR lol) :(


Appreciate the feedback from everyone nonetheless, glad I'm not "That Guy", but rather... "The Other Guy" who pitches something as if it's a new idea when in fact it was already done and failed miserably lmao (oof)

Speaking of mods, Darkness Fall has a level by doing system. Mixed with skill points.

I'm sold. lol

[c33tz]

Originally posted by dominicawb:

Funny how LBD systems work fantastically in other games, and it being the reason why people ask for it again here.

Well that's just it... literally so much so that I had a brain lapse to forget this game even tried to do it lol.

the theory of LBD is solid, it HAS been done well before ... just not in 7D2D (or done 'well' rather, apparently). The question is:

(a) Is this a fundamental issue with the game/genre that makes it fail? (I don't think so? it is a very grindy, RPG guided game with long-term progression and action requirements)
or

(b) Was it simple not implement well enough? (or the foundation to support it was not there fundamentally.?) ... my argument is NOW it "might" have some hope with all skill trees being accessible form Day 1-ish to allow balance between playstyles/goals and enable progression for all of them from Day 1 onwards

[c33tz]

Originally posted by James:

Oddly I find LBD to be more immersion breaking in any game I've seen it in.

It turns all your actions into a weird grind where you spam actions that give the most reward in ways that are less logical than a reasonably done generic xp system.

Instead of doing quests and fighting enemies you make 1000 iron daggers that you don't want.

This is an issue of implementation. If done 'right' you should never 'feel' like you're grinding anything, simple "do what you do"/"Play your playstyle" (Like more like Skyrim in a sense... avoiding stealth wall walking that is) and it'll get better without thinking about it" (in reality this isn't all players of course who want to try and min-max games, etc. -- i get that, you're absolutely right).

The solution is... "crafting Iron Dagger x1000" does not give XP at all ... only using a dagger to deal damage gives Xp... or "XP on first time crafted" at MOST. Simply remove the incentive/opportunity to 'grind' (so long as there is a better alternative, and maybe boost XP gain to that alternative if it's infrequent/challenging)

The craft grind would be for those speccing up construciton tree/INT where Devs would need to think of creative/engaging ways to enable 'building on demand', not 'building our of necessity' to level up.

LBD is only a premise/concept, its up to Devs to make it meaningful and engaging and avoid issues liek you just said (which I totally agree on, but think applies to 'specific' games, due to how they were implement).