It's totally pointless to have an auto shotgun that shoots slowly.

[sinkingsun690]

I just wanted to say that. It makes no sense at all to have an auto shotgun that has a slow rate of fire. It takes all the special away from the weapon. I've even added the full auto mod to it, and there's no reason to even do that. This gun should fire as fast as you can click the mouse, and mods should make it easier to handle while doing so.

[Crashtian]

This will be a well balanced discussion where we definitely don't over weigh certain aspects of realism while completely negating other aspects of it depending on our personal preferences.

[Uscari]

"Automatic" as a qualifying word does not imply a set speed. Automatic is when the weapon fires without repeated manual input from the user.

Originally posted by sinkingsun690:

This gun should fire as fast as you can click the mouse

That's called "semi automatic". What makes the gun "automatic" is doing the process of loading and firing a round on its own without needing to repeatedly pull the trigger.

Full Auto Shotgun with the automatic mod fires without needing to repeatedly tap M1, you can hold M1 and fire at the maximum rate.

Btw, the firing speed of the automatic shotgun with the auto-shotgun equipped is very fast in my opinion when you account for just how powerful shotgun shells are. The Auto Shotgun arguably has a higher DPS than the M60.

[Smetrix]

You’d blow through ammo and level POI’s within seconds if it fired that fast lol.

[hpsfamily]

next post would be.. i died when i blew out all the first floor walls and the house landed on me.. lol

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Uscari:

The Auto Shotgun arguably has a higher DPS than the M60.

That must be quite an interesting argument you are envisioning to argue that 131 > 367.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by Uscari:

The Auto Shotgun arguably has a higher DPS than the M60.

That must be quite an interesting argument you are envisioning to argue that 131 > 367.

You got those values by multiplying the damage per hit x the firing rate shown on the wiki?

There are 3 factors you aren't considering:

1. Penetration (Each shell basically does 2x when zombies are lined up)
2. Head Explosion (Shotgun blasts to the head have a very high chance of instant killing)
3. Spread Recovery (Shotgun recovers spread near instantly)

The real DPS of the M60 is much lower than 367 because you're never going to be firing at the maximum rate without compromising your ability to hit the head. Even if you read the book that allows you to be more accurate, that resets after every reload and takes time to ramp up. The real firing rate is probably 25% lower.

Meanwhile the real DPS of the Auto Shotgun is underrepresented due to not accounting for how much damage a Shotgun head explosion can accomplish, which is upwards of 1000 per shell depending on the type of zombie involved. The spread recovery is also fast enough that you can continue firing at maximum rate while still hitting all of your shots.

I think with all factors accounted for the Auto Shotgun will achieve higher DPS than the M60, unless the M60 is using AP rounds, in which case it will have a noticeable advantage, at least in the short term.

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by Uscari:

The Auto Shotgun arguably has a higher DPS than the M60.

That must be quite an interesting argument you are envisioning to argue that 131 > 367.

I mean, sure, out of the box the M60 does about ~3x the DPS of the Auto Shotgun, but that's not really a full picture. There's quite a bit to unpack, and the Auto Shotgun benefits at nearly every turn.

Shotguns are favorable for breakpoints - bursts of heavy damage are generally better than streams of lower damage, especially if it lets you one or two shot enemies.

Shotguns have multiple pellets which mean very high chances of instant kills. Shotgun Messiah's "Limb Shot" skillbook pushes this even further with instant kills or incaps effectively guaranteed with every well-placed trigger pull.

The Auto Shotgun benefits more from mods. It can equip Full Auto for a massive damage boost and also gains far more damage per mod. It also has access to the powerful shotgun chokes. The m60 does even this out with firerate, but does so at the cost of ammo efficiency.

Boomstick provides twice as much of a damage boost as Machine Gunner (50% vs. 25%), bringing the Auto Shotguns comparative DPS to ~50% the M60's compared to the previous ~33% and further weighing into shotgun's single shot burst strengths. Oh, by the way? Neck and neck with the innate pierce from shotgun shells.

Shotguns have a further 20% damage boost from books which rifles lack. This does only apply to full health targets, but one shot kills are a shotgun's bread and butter. Rifles do get 1% damage per hit but I believe this resets on miss OR hitting a different target, and even if it doesn't that still makes shotguns more consistent.

Much better accuracy recovery after shot, access to shotgun chokes, and strong use of run and gun.

Ease of use & firepower per bullet greatly favors shotguns; shotguns get far more bang for their buck in terms of a single stack of ammo and ammo types are more diverse. Shotguns shells are also generally considered fairly cheap to craft and the components that go into crafting shotgun shells are both more simple & take less time to craft. On top of all of that, shotgun shells are effectively AP ammunition that take even less time and resources to create. AP ammo does come out ahead against armored targets, but Slugs also exist.

The Auto Shotgun takes about twice as long to empty a mag and reloads in around half the time, meaning the sustained DPS is significantly better - you'll effectively have a quarter the downtime. The m60's poor near 50/50 split of shooting to reloading is compensated for with mods, but the Auto Shotgun can either forgo these mods for others or embrace them to fire for 30+ seconds without reloading.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Uscari:

You got those values by multiplying the damage per hit x the firing rate shown on the wiki?1.

I got them from the xml of 19.6.

Originally posted by Uscari:

There are 3 factors you aren't considering:

1. Penetration (Each shell basically does 2x when zombies are lined up)
2. Head Explosion (Shotgun blasts to the head have a very high chance of instant killing)
3. Spread Recovery (Shotgun recovers spread near instantly)

No, I considered those too.

First, even in the special case where you have zombies lined up within 5m for that first shotgun shot, it is virtually impossible to keep having fresh zombies lined up within 5m every 0.85 seconds (the time between shots) after that. That's just silly.

Second, even if you insist on using the instantly replacing zombies in a line within 5m impossible scenario, here's a surprise for you, you can put AP rounds in the M60 and have penetration. :)

As far as head explosions, perk Boomstick only increases limb damage, not decaps.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Triple magazine size using the drum magazin mod vs the pump shotgun with tube extender isn´t pointless tbh. And nope you can´t use the drum magazin mod on the pump shot gun.

@Uscari First i would trust ingame numbers and escpeially the xml files way more than the wiki. And second, from pure experience ingame i am 99% sure that i can kill a 50 zombie horde faster with the M60 than with the auto shotgun. The higher range of the M60 makes a lot of a difference also depening on the situation.

Source: nearly 6K hours played.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by Uscari:

You got those values by multiplying the damage per hit x the firing rate shown on the wiki?1.

I got them from the xml of 19.6.

Originally posted by Uscari:

There are 3 factors you aren't considering:

1. Penetration (Each shell basically does 2x when zombies are lined up)
2. Head Explosion (Shotgun blasts to the head have a very high chance of instant killing)
3. Spread Recovery (Shotgun recovers spread near instantly)

No, I considered those too.

First, even in the special case where you have zombies lined up within 5m for that first shotgun shot, it is virtually impossible to keep having fresh zombies lined up within 5m every 0.85 seconds (the time between shots) after that. That's just silly.

Second, even if you insist on the instantly replacing zombies in a line impossible scenario, here's a surprise for you, you can put AP 5ounds in the M60 and have penetration. :)

As far as head explosions, perk Boomstick only increases limb damage, not decaps.

Having zombies lined up isn't a special case, it can happen literally every horde night using the right base setup. I can't imagine what you think is silly or impossible about that. The whole game is built around that.

It might be true that the Auto-Shotgun's absurd DPS is so high that you kill them faster than they can get within optimal range, but that is a positive of the weapon, not a negative.

It is true that M60 with AP rounds can match and exceed Auto Shotgun DPS, at least in the short term. However, the guy above you said it best:

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

The Auto Shotgun takes about twice as long to empty a mag and reloads in around half the time, meaning the sustained DPS is significantly better - you'll effectively have a quarter the downtime.

The Auto-Shotgun keeps up the damage in the long game by packing more damage in a clip than the M60 while having a significantly faster reload time.

Also the durability you consume by firing 6x faster and having to use AP ammo for comparable DPS means you'll be going through a lot more repair kits than you would with Auto Shotgun.

[Uscari]

I forgot to address 2 other things:

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

As far as head explosions, perk Boomstick only increases limb damage, not decaps.

It doesn't matter whether or not Boomstick increases the chance, because shotgun shells inherently have a much higher head explosion chance than any other weapon.

Try it out against a Demolisher, which is a heavily armored target that shotgun shells are supposed to be weak against by increasing their armor rating much like HP rounds do. You have a very high chance of instant killing them just by shooting them in the head with a shotgun. You'll probably kill them faster with that than with an M60 using AP rounds simply because of the high head explosion chance.

Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa:

Triple magazine size using the drum magazin mod vs the pump shotgun with tube extender isn´t pointless tbh. And nope you can´t use the drum magazin mod on the pump shot gun.

@Uscari First i would trust ingame numbers and escpeially the xml files way more than the wiki. And second, from pure experience ingame i am 99% sure that i can kill a 50 zombie horde faster with the M60 than with the auto shotgun. The higher range of the M60 makes a lot of a difference also depening on the situation.

Source: nearly 6K hours played.

You can use the drum magazine on the Auto Shotgun though, giving it upwards of 32 rounds in a clip.

I'm not saying I doubt his sources, I'm saying there are factors other than damage per shot and firing rate to consider when calculating true DPS.

When it comes to the 50 zombies thing, I think it entirely depends on the setting.

If you're out in a field kiting zombies, you'd probably do better with the M60.

If you're in a dedicated kill zone horde base dealing with them single file, I think Auto-Shotgun starts to overtake the M60.

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by Uscari:

The Auto-Shotgun keeps up the damage in the long game by packing more damage in a clip than the M60 while having a significantly faster reload time.

Also the durability you consume by firing 6x faster and having to use AP ammo for comparable DPS means you'll be going through a lot more repair kits than you would with Auto Shotgun.

To be fair, repair kits aren't exactly expensive. That being said you'll definitely burn through upwards of a dozen of them with an AP ammo rifle whereas a shotgun might not even need more than 1. That's quite a bit of time spent not only crafting kits but also repairing your gun when you could be shooting instead, further reinforcing the shotgun's strengths in the low down time & easily crafted ammo.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

Boomstick provides twice as much of a damage boost as Machine Gunner (50% vs. 25%), bringing the Auto Shotguns comparative DPS to ~50% the M60's compared to the previous ~33% and further weighing into shotgun's single shot burst strengths.

An extra 20% from books, and 25% from the perk does not make 131 > 367.

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

Oh, by the way? Neck and neck with the innate pierce from shotgun shells.

Oh, by the way? M60 gets pierce too with AP rounds. :)

[sinkingsun690]

Originally posted by Smetrix:

You’d blow through ammo and level POI’s within seconds if it fired that fast lol.

There are perks in the game for the shotgun to damage blocks. That's an intended feature.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Uscari:

Having zombies lined up isn't a special case, it can happen literally every horde night using the right base setup. I can't imagine what you think is silly or impossible about that. The whole game is built around that.

Having the line of zombies replaced in literally a fraction of a second all within 5m of you, over and over continuously, is the silly part.