Exploitation

[vgifford]

Is it possible to be successful in this game WITHOUT cheesing the AI?

As has been stated previously in other posts, there is a tower defense element to this game. Does that inherently mean the only way to "win" is to force the zombies to path where you want them to go?

I play solo. I gave up on fancy bases when the zombie group damage multipliers were introduced.

I fight hordes outside, they all path straight to me. Its not hard to kite and move.

Is there ANY other strategy in this game other than pathing exploits?

Does the tower defense based AI make the game too easy?

[Capt. W. Schwartz]

Originally posted by vgifford:

I fight hordes outside, they all path straight to me. Its not hard to kite and move.

This is how I play.

[Brevan]

What kind of alternatives appeal to people? Success without engaging Zs? If kiting Zs is considered cheesing their AI, while Horde strategies like kill corridors, grenade pits (floating bases), etc (strats where you don't kite), are also considered cheesing the AI, then I'm not sure what alternatives there are. I wouldn't mind trying them though, just not sure what they are.

[Kattla]

When you fight the hordes outside, you "exploit" the ai since it will bring the zombies too you. You also "exploit" that most zombies have weaker weapons then you.

There is ONE strategy to not exploit zombie pathing AI at all on horde night , and that is to turn the hordes off. Belive it or not, but it is a legit strategy. I did it once to test it, and ... nevermore.

If the current zombie AI makes the game too easy? It makes it predictable, and that make it easier to counter. On the other hand, we learned how to deal with zombies before A17 too, so.. not sure if i want to call it easier these days.

In your singleplayer world, the only judge is going to be you. Games are after all entertainment , and if no longer entertained by 7 days to die, it might be better to play another game. Or try an earlier alpha, like alpha 16.4. It is still what i consider one of the best alphas.

[vgifford]

The fact that the AI *IS* predictable and can be manipulated is my complaint. The zombies make a bee line to the player. Always. It doesn't take long for a human to discover how to manipulate the AI so they do exactly what the player wants. Isn't that an "error" in the programming?

Is manipulating the zombies pathing the ONLY viable strategy in this game?

Either make a maze for them to traverse through all your traps, or make a pathing loop where they just make the same mistakes over and over (walking into those blade traps and sledge turrets at the top of the pathing loop.)

Are we building mouse traps or playing a fighting game?

[Pulikutya]

How do you kill them if they are not where you want them to be, and what do they do if they dont come to you to get killed? I defended bridges, pole forests, pits, platforms, pillboxes, concrete cubes, and they all do the same. Even with no base, they will come to you and do exactly what you want them to.

The best and most efficient defense without cheese is to slow them down in a narrow tunnel or on a bridge and shoot them. Jumps, water, electric fence. You can build a circular defense, but it does the same.

[Trooper Bri]

Predictable AI has been around as long as video games. You could master Pac Man by simply running the mazes in a specific path.
As long as people are smarter than AI, decide what wine you want with your cheese.

[Shurenai]

No matter what the AI does, in the end it will be predictable. If they only go for the player, if they ignore the player and attack the structure, if it's 50/50, if it's 30/70- If it only goes for your LCB.. It doesn't matter. In the end, the AI is going to do a specific set of actions in a specific predictable manner. It might take more or less time to figure out the trick; But there is ALWAYS a trick. There is no game with AI so fantastical that you can't predict what it will do once you have enough experience.

To add onto this, There is no reasonable way in a fully destructible fully buildable world for the AI to have any target but the player. If they're supposed to target player built constructions, the player will just build a concrete cube to attract the zombies, while they themselves are across the street in a normal POI, shooting at the zombies from there. You can't have them target something like an LCB instead, as the player would just refuse to put one down. The only target that the player cannot circumvent is the player character itself.

In the end, The only strategy in the game, in pretty much any game, is to defeat the enemy before the enemy defeats you- This is boiled down to the extreme, but it's the reality. How that is accomplished varies; But the end result is the same. Either you defeat the incoming enemies, Or you die. There's no inbetween state here; It doesn't matter if you fight them in an open field, in a building, in a maze, whatever- you still have to kill them before they kill you.

[vgifford]

Originally posted by Pulikutya:

How do you kill them if they are not where you want them to be, and what do they do if they dont come to you to get killed? I defended bridges, pole forests, pits, platforms, pillboxes, concrete cubes, and they all do the same. Even with no base, they will come to you and do exactly what you want them to.

Yes, I agree. Fight outside, they all come to you, just be ready.

I'm just saying the Tower Defense style of AI isn't really working here. Yep, zombies always try to path to me. Ok I'll give them a path to follow. Right through my traps, and when they get to the top, I'll have this sledge turret knock them back down to the bottom so they can do it all over again.

Not hard, not challenging. Boring. Lemmings in a loop.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by vgifford:

Originally posted by Pulikutya:

How do you kill them if they are not where you want them to be, and what do they do if they dont come to you to get killed? I defended bridges, pole forests, pits, platforms, pillboxes, concrete cubes, and they all do the same. Even with no base, they will come to you and do exactly what you want them to.

Yes, I agree. Fight outside, they all come to you, just be ready.

I'm just saying the Tower Defense style of AI isn't really working here. Yep, zombies always try to path to me. Ok I'll give them a path to follow. Right through my traps, and when they get to the top, I'll have this sledge turret knock them back down to the bottom so they can do it all over again.

Not hard, not challenging. Boring. Lemmings in a loop.

That's not just 'tower defense style of AI', That's 'literally every low level Melee type enemy in every game ever'.

The psychos in borderlands are the same, for example- They just rush for the player to melee them without regard for their safety. They dont have any other choice- The only way for them to attack is melee. The only alternative is for them to hide in cover until you find a way to shoot around the corner or throw a grenade, which in itself, is also boring. not challenging. not hard.

Dark Souls, prided for it's difficulty, Is also 'not hard, not challenging. It's boring. It's lemmings in a loop.' Once you've gotten good at parrying, anything short of a massive boss monster or a misstep on your part where you attract more than what you meant to, you're practically unkillable against most melee non-boss non-miniboss enemies. Because they have no choice but to approach you to attack you, or to hide away and let you attack from range. All you have to do is stand your ground, shield finger at the ready, and parry at the right moment. Lemmings for you to slay.


Edit: To elaborate a bit on my prior thoughts, The big issue here isn't the AI. It's that there is essentially only one singular type of enemy. We have...Zombies. And more zombies. And even more zombies. They're all low-level melee class enemies that can only be a threat to the player in one way- Approaching them, and subsequently meleeing them.

Cop zombies are a ranged threat- But spawn so infrequently that it's a bit moot, and they dont do so much damage that they're that big of a threat to the player themselves; they're more a threat to buildings- Meanwhile, the projectile is slow and fairly easy to dodge at medium range.

Demolishers are a special threat- They deal a massive amount of damage, but, only if you screw up and trigger the bomb- Otherwise they're just melee enemies.

Birds are melee enemies that can attack from above. Dogs are melee enemies. Spider zombies are melee enemies with a jump attack.

The issue isn't really the AI. It's that all the enemies are melee units, while the player has ranged attacks and as much or as little defense as they choose to put into it. And melee enemies can really only approach the target to attack the target.

[Kattla]

Originally posted by vgifford:

The fact that the AI *IS* predictable and can be manipulated is my complaint. The zombies make a bee line to the player. Always. It doesn't take long for a human to discover how to manipulate the AI so they do exactly what the player wants. Isn't that an "error" in the programming?

Is manipulating the zombies pathing the ONLY viable strategy in this game?

Either make a maze for them to traverse through all your traps, or make a pathing loop where they just make the same mistakes over and over (walking into those blade traps and sledge turrets at the top of the pathing loop.)

Are we building mouse traps or playing a fighting game?

We are playing a fighting game when we play 7d2d alpha 17 or higher. There were other strategies, outrunning the zombies on foot or with vehicles. Which would make perfect sense in a surival game, but since the vehicle part is pretty much hardcoded out with magicly speeded up high mass birds , i just call it a fighting game these days.

Can still outrun the horde on foot though. Not sure if that qualify as pathing exploit or not. I did actually try it in A19, just for fun, and it was a bit meh. I prefer fighting, well, meaningless butchering of previously fine folks.

Conclusion: Using zombie pathing AI to our advantage is pretty much playing the game as intended. Not cheesing at all, although it feels cheap at times.

No looping here, just death and meaningless butchering. I can build mouse traps AND play a zombie fighting game. Well, zombie traps, not mouse traps. Mice are far more clever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVSt6AqjcDQ

[vgifford]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Edit: To elaborate a bit on my prior thoughts, The big issue here isn't the AI. It's that there is essentially only one singular type of enemy... They're all low-level melee class enemies that can only be a threat to the player in one way- Approaching them, and subsequently meleeing them.

Cop zombies are a ranged threat- But spawn so infrequently that it's a bit moot, and they dont do so much damage that they're that big of a threat to the player themselves; they're more a threat to buildings- Meanwhile, the projectile is slow and fairly easy to dodge at medium range.

Demolishers are a special threat- They deal a massive amount of damage, but, only if you screw up and trigger the bomb- Otherwise they're just melee enemies.

Birds are melee enemies that can attack from above. Dogs are melee enemies. Spider zombies are melee enemies with a jump attack.

The issue isn't really the AI. It's that all the enemies are melee units, while the player has ranged attacks and as much or as little defense as they choose to put into it. And melee enemies can really only approach the target to attack the target.

I agree with you here. We need more variety in zombie tactics. Is it possible for them to have multiple AIs? Just so they aren't predictable. A larger variety of ranged attacks from zombies would be better. As to demolishers, I have survived their explosions at high level at point blank range (specced into melee tank build). Perhaps another demolisher type with a rocket launcher for the zombies? Spider zombies - love them. I think the Fun Pimps have their AI perfect. They are one of the few melee challenges only because they can leap behind you.

[[-=O=-]^FightinCock]

one mans cheese is another mans toasties....

its hard to believe... if zombies were real... I couldn't make them path where we wanted them to go.
unless they were.... more intelligent ?
Or maybe a bit more randomness could be added... maybe to avoid the conga line at least.

And yeah.... i miss spiders climbing up walls... although was easy enough to stop them with a bit of a lip... but if you are not prepared, that was a bit of a surprise up your butt.

Guess we all just have to wait and see what other "specials" will come out of the road map to gold.

And then go play the mods if we are not happy with the vanilla result. lol.

[Pulikutya]

Originally posted by vgifford:

I agree with you here. We need more variety in zombie tactics. Is it possible for them to have multiple AIs? Just so they aren't predictable. A larger variety of ranged attacks from zombies would be better. As to demolishers, I have survived their explosions at high level at point blank range (specced into melee tank build). Perhaps another demolisher type with a rocket launcher for the zombies? Spider zombies - love them. I think the Fun Pimps have their AI perfect. They are one of the few melee challenges only because they can leap behind you.

I think when we get bandits, they should just get mortars. Until then, medieval defenses will do. That would not make BM any different, but there is not much you can do with melee AI. If they would at least spawn more randomly instead of alternating between four points... Better melee combat would be nice as well.

[Khissi]

In honesty, using the word 'exploit' to describe what any military expert would call 'tactical information' is offensive. Every war ever fought has been won with knowledge and that knowledge comes through observation, information, and understanding of the enemy's tactics. Once you've observed the way zombies move, how they react, what they can and can't do, you use that knowledge to stay alive.. to win.. to DO what the game intends for you to do! Just because a zombie in this game does the things it does by means of AI, doesn't mean the same use of TACTICAL information is in some way an exploit, unless you're referring to the fact that you're 'exploiting' the information you've gathered.

One definition of the term exploit reads: A program or system designed to take advantage of a particular error or security vulnerability in computers or networks.

Another definition of that word is: To employ to the greatest possible advantage.

To which of these definitions are you referring?

[SiEgE]

Originally posted by vgifford:

Is it possible to be successful in this game WITHOUT cheesing the AI?

Lets start with a clarification:
Any game vs AI is basically about exploitation of its weaknesses. Super Mario, Metroid or Castlevania - all those games are basically about exploiting pattern-prone simplicity of the enemy. Same goes for most first person shooters, third person RPGs and etc. With an exception to strategy games, where it is still the same rule, but the exploits are more complex.
In those games, the game itself dictates your position, and your challenge(manipulates the amount of abilities, and the surrounding you're playing at). When it comes to sandbox games like this one, you dictate everything, and enemies are "attempting" to appear somewhat threatening. Given enough grind, you can become unstoppable.

Originally posted by vgifford:

As has been stated previously in other posts, there is a tower defense element to this game. Does that inherently mean the only way to "win" is to force the zombies to path where you want them to go?

Reading too deep, I guess.
In this game, zombies are trying to reach you, and you dispose of them, and the building is here just to make the killing more convenient. Of all things, the game is more like first person strategy. You do not spawn or control other units, only do things for crowd control.

Originally posted by vgifford:

I play solo. I gave up on fancy bases when the zombie group damage multipliers were introduced.

I fight hordes outside, they all path straight to me. Its not hard to kite and move.

Is there ANY other strategy in this game other than pathing exploits?

Does the tower defense based AI make the game too easy?

I build horde night bases, basically just to see how zombies would try to break it down. If your skill is enough for run-n-gun, then good for you, but when there are just too many zombies(and they are not taken down that easily), you might wanna have a concrete wall for them to stop at, so you can have a clear shot. That is especially necessary, if we're talking about explosive damage.

Play the game the way you like it, but don't let the "understanding of properness" rob you of the fun you should've had.
And don't fall for the alluring call of the "path of the least resistance".