The “Rule 1: Cardio” perk should get a slight rework

[itchyfart123]

All the other skills that affect stamina usage in some way affect stamina cost. Rule 1: Cardio instead affects the rate of regen when running. Which is objectively worse. Not only does that mean you have more stamina burnt (and in turn more food/water used), but a 10% stamina usage reduction would allow for running for a longer period of time than a 10% stamina regen buff. In a build where players can easily go through 100+ food a day without doing anything stamina heavy and several hundred with stamina heavy activities, any little bit will help. It would also make the perk more viable early game, where food management is more of an issue, rather than a late game perk you buy when you have all the important stuff.

I also feel like it should be an agility skill and slightly reduce noise while running as well, but that’s more of a personal opinion.

[The Lou Gehrig Experience]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Brevan:

I wouldn't mind it giving +5% faster sprinting per level, in addition to it's stamina boost. I understand that it's already possible to outrun stuff with College Jacket and Running Shoes, but after changing and maxing the perk, you'd only need one of those items. I'm not sure if Cardio already affects the player while they're on a bicycle, but it would be nice if it did.

It does. Biking uses your running stamina so you can bike infinitely with enough stuff.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Oprindeligt skrevet af The Lou Gehrig Experience:

Oprindeligt skrevet af ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Yeah, we know about that of course... we're talking more about how it's almost useless compared to other perks where investing one or two points becomes a game changer.

If you go full Fortitude it's a given you get a good return on the investment.

Hmm, I guess I could agree on that. But there's a lot of perks that only have a slight impact [...]

Examples?

[Shurenai]

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

All the other skills that affect stamina usage in some way affect stamina cost. Rule 1: Cardio instead affects the rate of regen when running. Which is objectively worse. Not only does that mean you have more stamina burnt (and in turn more food/water used), but a 10% stamina usage reduction would allow for running for a longer period of time than a 10% stamina regen buff. In a build where players can easily go through 100+ food a day without doing anything stamina heavy and several hundred with stamina heavy activities, any little bit will help. It would also make the perk more viable early game, where food management is more of an issue, rather than a late game perk you buy when you have all the important stuff.

I also feel like it should be an agility skill and slightly reduce noise while running as well, but that’s more of a personal opinion.

I just wanted to address one thing that doesn't seem to be within this thread; 10% stamina usage reduction isn't much different than 10% stamina regen in terms of cost, since the player is pretty much always regenerating stamina; even while sprinting. I'm not sure on the exact numbers, But I'm betting the difference between the two is not quite as large as you seem to think.


The food/water usage thing is a fair point- But you're doing immense physical labor; You should be burning more calories, you should be needing more water to replace what is sweated out.

Sprinting is hard body breaking labor that our bodies simply cannot keep up with.

The average joe can only Sprint for about 8 seconds; Even world class Olympians top out around 14-15 seconds; And all involved require a rest period afterwards. This is because the human body literally cannot deliver the oxygen and atp required to maintain the feat.

You can run or jog a marathon at an even pace; But you can only sprint about 100-200 meters tops at absolute top speed before you slow down from your body being unable to keep up; The largest recognized Olympian sprint event is 400m and they slow down well before the end.

[itchyfart123]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

Text go poof

This is fairly inaccurate, apparently. Even an average person can run much longer than 8 seconds. Those in a fit shape can generally run miles at a time. Highly trained experts can run much longer. The record according to google is 350 miles of running nonstop over 80 hours. Apparently the limits at that point are generally due to basic body function (eating/drinking/sleeping).

As for caloric intake, it’s actually not as much as you’d think. Even those who routinely build insane amounts of muscles and burn through calories generally don’t go through more than 10k a day. That’s with training most of the day. We’ll say our character is decently fit and doesn’t train most of the day, so the caloric intake is limited to just a days worth of random actions. Assuming one unit of food is twenty calories (ex. Bacon and eggs are 720 calories - a fair statement for a sizeable meal), I easily go through 5k calories a day even without doing stamina intensive actions according to that conversion.

Finally, as for the stamina not making a difference, it makes a decent size one. The difference between 30% cost reduction and 30% regen is that cost reduction is equivalent to a ~43% regen (just a simple 1/0.7) while also decreasing food consumption.

Oprindeligt skrevet af ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Oprindeligt skrevet af The Lou Gehrig Experience:

Hmm, I guess I could agree on that. But there's a lot of perks that only have a slight impact [...]

Examples?

Of those I rank the lowest in priority, in no particular order, I’d say lockpicking, cardio, charismatic nature (in singleplayer), iron gut, huntsman, well insulated, the infiltrator, pack mule, and a few others depending on schematic and blueprint RNG. Generally everything else has at least a fair amount of use depending on play style, but those skills are generally the weakest for all play styles, IMO.

[Shurenai]

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

Text go poof

This is fairly inaccurate, apparently. Even an average person can run much longer than 8 seconds. Those in a fit shape can generally run miles at a time. Highly trained experts can run much longer. The record according to google is 350 miles of running nonstop over 80 hours. Apparently the limits at that point are generally due to basic body function (eating/drinking/sleeping).

You misunderstand. There is a monumental difference between Sprinting and Running.

What you're pointing out here is something I specifically pointed out in my text that you poofed;

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

"You can run or jog a marathon at an even pace; But you can only sprint about 100-200 meters tops at absolute top speed before you slow down from your body being unable to keep up"

Your character in 7DTD is always doing a light jog/strong power walk. You can do it for hundreds of miles, as you have pointed out. Marathon runners do it all the time.


But Sprinting != Running. Sprinting is a different beast altogether. You physically cannot sprint for longer than about 8-15 seconds. Your body literally cannot metabolize ATP fast enough, nor transfer oxygen from your lungs fast enough to maintain that peak performance.

After 8-15 seconds (and again, 14-15 is an Olympian feat; Not a layman) your muscles will be drained of what they have stored up and fall back to what your body is able to keep providing- And this is matched with a commensurate drop in speed; And this Must be followed by a rest period for your body to re-build it's stores of energy. The moment your speed falls, You're no longer Sprinting; You're running.

[itchyfart123]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

This is fairly inaccurate, apparently. Even an average person can run much longer than 8 seconds. Those in a fit shape can generally run miles at a time. Highly trained experts can run much longer. The record according to google is 350 miles of running nonstop over 80 hours. Apparently the limits at that point are generally due to basic body function (eating/drinking/sleeping).

You misunderstand. There is a monumental difference between Sprinting and Running.

What you're pointing out here is something I specifically pointed out in my text that you poofed;

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

"You can run or jog a marathon at an even pace; But you can only sprint about 100-200 meters tops at absolute top speed before you slow down from your body being unable to keep up"

Your character in 7DTD is always doing a light jog/strong power walk. You can do it for hundreds of miles, as you have pointed out. Marathon runners do it all the time.


But Sprinting != Running. Sprinting is a different beast altogether. You physically cannot sprint for longer than about 8-15 seconds. Your body literally cannot metabolize ATP fast enough, nor transfer oxygen from your lungs fast enough to maintain that peak performance.

After 8-15 seconds (and again, 14-15 is an Olympian feat; Not a layman) your muscles will be drained of what they have stored up and fall back to what your body is able to keep providing- And this is matched with a commensurate drop in speed; And this Must be followed by a rest period for your body to re-build it's stores of energy. The moment your speed falls, You're no longer Sprinting; You're running.

The definition change between sprint and jog is one that that most people won’t differentiate between, I feel like. Including the devs. The game uses both sprint and run interchangeably. Given the speed at which we move during the action, it seems closer to a run to me if we’re going for that technicality. As for walking, it’s definitely just a walk, not a light jog, at least from comparison to other games. Even within the game, I don’t believe it exceeds maybe a block or two per second - a walking speed. Though actual numbers from the files would be much better than an estimate here, of course.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Shurenai:

You misunderstand. There is a monumental difference between Sprinting and Running.

What you're pointing out here is something I specifically pointed out in my text that you poofed;
Your character in 7DTD is always doing a light jog/strong power walk. You can do it for hundreds of miles, as you have pointed out. Marathon runners do it all the time.


But Sprinting != Running. Sprinting is a different beast altogether. You physically cannot sprint for longer than about 8-15 seconds. Your body literally cannot metabolize ATP fast enough, nor transfer oxygen from your lungs fast enough to maintain that peak performance.

After 8-15 seconds (and again, 14-15 is an Olympian feat; Not a layman) your muscles will be drained of what they have stored up and fall back to what your body is able to keep providing- And this is matched with a commensurate drop in speed; And this Must be followed by a rest period for your body to re-build it's stores of energy. The moment your speed falls, You're no longer Sprinting; You're running.

The definition change between sprint and jog is one that that most people won’t differentiate between, I feel like. Including the devs. The game uses both sprint and run interchangeably. Given the speed at which we move during the action, it seems closer to a run to me if we’re going for that technicality. As for walking, it’s definitely just a walk, not a light jog, at least from comparison to other games. Even within the game, I don’t believe it exceeds maybe a block or two per second - a walking speed. Though actual numbers from the files would be much better than an estimate here, of course.

Except the devs/game DO differentiate between running and sprinting.
You can find it in the very settings for zombie speed before you start the game.

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Oprindeligt skrevet af ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Examples?

Of those I rank the lowest in priority, in no particular order, I’d say lockpicking, cardio, charismatic nature (in singleplayer), iron gut, huntsman, well insulated, the infiltrator, pack mule, and a few others depending on schematic and blueprint RNG. Generally everything else has at least a fair amount of use depending on play style, but those skills are generally the weakest for all play styles, IMO.

The way I see it, at lower levels, Cardio is probably the less impactful of all the ones you listed (except for Carismatic Nature in SP of course).

By that I mean that each of the others give you "something" even when you invest just one point into them:

• lockpicking - immediately enables you to craft Lockpicks plus the bonus while opening safes
• iron guts - will not only let you drain less food/water but also let you stay underwater for longer
• huntsman - will let you easily track small game for meat
• well insulated - I admit this one has almost no impact
• infiltrator - gives you an edge against traps
• pack mule - 6 new slots immediately

Here I'm talking about what the perks give you independently of personal choice/preference during a game based on your situation of the moment.

Cardio is the only one that give you "nothing", meaning it only gives a small (and unimpactful) percentage of stamina recovery which won't do much until you fully invest into it.

[itchyfart123]

Oprindeligt skrevet af ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

The definition change between sprint and jog is one that that most people won’t differentiate between, I feel like. Including the devs. The game uses both sprint and run interchangeably. Given the speed at which we move during the action, it seems closer to a run to me if we’re going for that technicality. As for walking, it’s definitely just a walk, not a light jog, at least from comparison to other games. Even within the game, I don’t believe it exceeds maybe a block or two per second - a walking speed. Though actual numbers from the files would be much better than an estimate here, of course.

Except the devs/game DO differentiate between running and sprinting.
You can find it in the very settings for zombie speed before you start the game.

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Of those I rank the lowest in priority, in no particular order, I’d say lockpicking, cardio, charismatic nature (in singleplayer), iron gut, huntsman, well insulated, the infiltrator, pack mule, and a few others depending on schematic and blueprint RNG. Generally everything else has at least a fair amount of use depending on play style, but those skills are generally the weakest for all play styles, IMO.

The way I see it, at lower levels, Cardio is probably the less impactful of all the ones you listed (except for Carismatic Nature in SP of course).

By that I mean that each of the others give you "something" even when you invest just one point into them:

• lockpicking - immediately enables you to craft Lockpicks plus the bonus while opening safes
• iron guts - will not only let you drain less food/water but also let you stay underwater for longer
• huntsman - will let you easily track small game for meat
• well insulated - I admit this one has almost no impact
• infiltrator - gives you an edge against traps
• pack mule - 6 new slots immediately

Here I'm talking about what the perks give you independently of personal choice/preference during a game based on your situation of the moment.

Cardio is the only one that give you "nothing", meaning it only gives a small (and unimpactful) percentage of stamina recovery which won't do much until you fully invest into it.

Considering sprint and run are used interchangeably in various parts of the game, I’d say they don’t differentiate. The action the player performs is called sprinting in some locations and running in others.

As for the perks, yes, it’s highly subjective. But my reasonings here are as follows:

Lockpicking - lock picks can be found in sufficient quantities already for most safes. Not to mention that breaking open the safe is always an option (and arguably faster according to some players - I’d be curious for a dedicated test on that). You can also craft them without the perk for cheaper, faster, and in larger quantities with some books read. I guess it might be more important on lower loot settings, but that’s a different thing.

Iron gut - Does anyone ever actually use the underwater breathing time portion of this? Especially given that our character swims as well as a concrete block. As for the food reduction, it does have a use, but it’s still extremely low priority in regards to other perks. I didn’t like the food poison system of a18 as it was implemented, but it did bring up iron gut in terms of importance.

Huntsman - Sure, you can track stuff. But as long as you pay even a bit of attention, you get more meat, leather, and bones than you ever need. I only kill about half the animals I see (outright ignoring chickens and rabbits) and still end up with excess. That’s without actively hunting - I only kill animals while traveling around. I could probably reduce that amount to a third or a fourth before I break even. I thought about throwing in the perk for excess knife harvesting as well, but that’s important for feathers and rotten meat depending on playstyle.

Infiltrator - I guess? But as long as you’re careful, this isn’t an issue. Most of the traps are fairly obvious and are only issues if they catch you off guard (looking at you, wasteland terrain land mines). When looting buildings, they’re all decently obvious, especially once you get the hang of how traps are placed.

Pack mule - Pocket mods are the way to go until near the end of the game, IMO, at which point you can free up a mod slot for… insulation…

Again, the rankings of these are somewhat subjective, but generally I feel like these are the weakest regardless of playstyle.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Oprindeligt skrevet af ⚜ JOST AMMAN ⚜:

Except the devs/game DO differentiate between running and sprinting.
You can find it in the very settings for zombie speed before you start the game.


The way I see it, at lower levels, Cardio is probably the less impactful of all the ones you listed (except for Carismatic Nature in SP of course).

By that I mean that each of the others give you "something" even when you invest just one point into them:

• lockpicking - immediately enables you to craft Lockpicks plus the bonus while opening safes
• iron guts - will not only let you drain less food/water but also let you stay underwater for longer
• huntsman - will let you easily track small game for meat
• well insulated - I admit this one has almost no impact
• infiltrator - gives you an edge against traps
• pack mule - 6 new slots immediately

Here I'm talking about what the perks give you independently of personal choice/preference during a game based on your situation of the moment.

Cardio is the only one that give you "nothing", meaning it only gives a small (and unimpactful) percentage of stamina recovery which won't do much until you fully invest into it.

Considering sprint and run are used interchangeably in various parts of the game, I’d say they don’t differentiate. The action the player performs is called sprinting in some locations and running in others.

Potato, potatoe.
You can flip it however you want: sprinting is like running on steroids.

As Shurenai already mentioned, when you keep the [SHIFT] key pressed in game you're sprinting, meaning that your character will keep running at his/her maximum speed until he/she runs out of stamina. THAT's called sprinting.

It's not like this is the first game to use this mechanic, I'm rather baffled that it's so diffuclt for you to accept this concept.

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

As for the perks, yes, it’s highly subjective. But my reasonings here are as follows:

Lockpicking - lock picks can be found in sufficient quantities already for most safes. Not to mention that breaking open the safe is always an option (and arguably faster according to some players - I’d be curious for a dedicated test on that). You can also craft them without the perk for cheaper, faster, and in larger quantities with some books read. I guess it might be more important on lower loot settings, but that’s a different thing.

Iron gut - Does anyone ever actually use the underwater breathing time portion of this? Especially given that our character swims as well as a concrete block. As for the food reduction, it does have a use, but it’s still extremely low priority in regards to other perks. I didn’t like the food poison system of a18 as it was implemented, but it did bring up iron gut in terms of importance.

Huntsman - Sure, you can track stuff. But as long as you pay even a bit of attention, you get more meat, leather, and bones than you ever need. I only kill about half the animals I see (outright ignoring chickens and rabbits) and still end up with excess. That’s without actively hunting - I only kill animals while traveling around. I could probably reduce that amount to a third or a fourth before I break even. I thought about throwing in the perk for excess knife harvesting as well, but that’s important for feathers and rotten meat depending on playstyle.

Infiltrator - I guess? But as long as you’re careful, this isn’t an issue. Most of the traps are fairly obvious and are only issues if they catch you off guard (looking at you, wasteland terrain land mines). When looting buildings, they’re all decently obvious, especially once you get the hang of how traps are placed.

Pack mule - Pocket mods are the way to go until near the end of the game, IMO, at which point you can free up a mod slot for… insulation…

Again, the rankings of these are somewhat subjective, but generally I feel like these are the weakest regardless of playstyle.

I know very well how each and every perk in the game can be circumvented by making different choices and not investing in them.

It seems you're categorizing perks based on your own 7D2D experience, and not based on the things they give you compared (in the case of this discussion) to Cardio.

If you want my own opinion on most of those skills, well, I'm a game "veteran", I could live indefinitely without using ANY of those skills. I could even thrive without them! ... But is that the point of this discussion? ... Seems to me you just want to win an argument and you're not really comparing each perk to the other in terms of balancing. I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Cardio gives you the same advantages (at lower levels) as the other perks.

I stand my point: Cardio is the most underwhelming perk in 7D2D.

[Alshian]

I prefer to run forever with regen than running for a short time with reduced cost.

It would be cool to 5% sprint speed per level up to 5 for 25% sprint speed along side the regen.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Alshian:

I prefer to run forever with regen than running for a short time with reduced cost.

It would be cool to 5% sprint speed per level up to 5 for 25% sprint speed along side the regen.

+

[KippenKaasBaas]

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Iron gut - Does anyone ever actually use the underwater breathing time portion of this? Especially given that our character swims as well as a concrete block.

I 100% agree with this. The only reason you would need underwater breathing is because swimming is horrible in this game.

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Huntsman - Sure, you can track stuff. But as long as you pay even a bit of attention, you get more meat, leather, and bones than you ever need. I only kill about half the animals I see (outright ignoring chickens and rabbits) and still end up with excess. That’s without actively hunting - I only kill animals while traveling around. I could probably reduce that amount to a third or a fourth before I break even. I thought about throwing in the perk for excess knife harvesting as well, but that’s important for feathers and rotten meat depending on playstyle.

Different players have different experiences. I always pick Huntsman in the early stages of the game. Especially to get some more meat. In combination with the Animal Tracker perk you can easily gather large amounts of meat to keep yourself fed in those early days.

Oprindeligt skrevet af itchyfart123:

Infiltrator - I guess? But as long as you’re careful, this isn’t an issue. Most of the traps are fairly obvious and are only issues if they catch you off guard (looking at you, wasteland terrain land mines). When looting buildings, they’re all decently obvious, especially once you get the hang of how traps are placed.

Again, different for me... Especially in the more difficult POI's, traps and mines killed me more times than I'd like to admit. An extra second to get of those floor boards, and 20% less damage from mines can make all the difference. And that's with just one point.