Attribute Stat increasing

[Lostknight0727]

Can we please go back to having the base attributes increase naturally while using them?

Perception could increase from Hunting, Looting, Javalin and Rifles

Strength from Shotguns, Stunning, Heavy Melee, and Mining

Fortitude from Punching, Healing/stamina use, Machine guns, Eating cooked meals.

Agility ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ RUNNING, Sneaking, Pistols, archery, knives

Intelligence Building, stun batons, Trading, Questing, Wrenches

There's just so many wasted points being put into the base stats rather than just gating them with leveling them naturally. Leveling them doesn't increase your character level, just the stat itself. I'm not sure why this was removed from the game, it was so nice to just run around and see "Agility has increased" and be able to run just that tiny bit more before using up the stamina bar. Now all they do is unlock perk levels, and give headshot damage increases. It's a waste of a point if every level of the stat doesn't unlock a perk level or meaningful upgrade.

For example, Levels 2, 4, 6, 8, and 9 of the stats are useless other than the headshot damage increase. They should have a built-in "mini-perk" related to that attribute's other perks.

For intelligence it could be lowering the required time it takes to craft items in your own inventory.

Perception, low light vision at night and inside

Strength, gain knockdown with 1-handed clubs as well maybe a 1% for each of those "wasted" levels.

Fortitude have a "second wind" mechanic where you have a small chance to not use any stamina or lose health from taking a hit. It could be a "low life/berserker" build where if you're below half health you take less damage or deal more damage.

Agility increase run speed

Simple little things that can make investing points feel so much more impactful other than just opening a lock.

[JimmyIowa]

There's a mod for similar systems, I think. Not sure if they are up to date for A19.6 though.

The vanilla game is very unlikely to return to such a system. The learn by doing system was very unpopular with players. TFP didn't change it for no reason.

[Lostknight0727]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

There's a mod for similar systems, I think. Not sure if they are up to date for A19.6 though.

The vanilla game is very unlikely to return to such a system. The learn by doing system was very unpopular with players. TFP didn't change it for no reason.

Huh, wonder why it wasn't popular? I'm not saying remove the ability to invest points if you want to level them faster, just allow them to be increased naturally.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Lostknight0727:

Huh, wonder why it wasn't popular?

A well designed LBD system is viable, and that's not the issue.. I think the system in A16 was perhaps not the most well designed. Example - To level armor skill you had to take damage x number of times while wearing armor. So people would literally just rub against a cactus for 3 days straight and get max armor skill. Then to level tool skill, people would just make 1000 wood frames, then upgrade them all with the stone axe then abandon them. Etc.

Learn by doing would ideally only reward things that actually accomplish something in actual gameplay instead of rewarding pointless spam.

[JimmyIowa]

And I am pretty sure I have heard mention of mods that add LBD back in to A19. I would encourage you to try those and play as you want..

[Lostknight0727]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

Originally posted by Lostknight0727:

Huh, wonder why it wasn't popular?

A well designed LBD system is viable, and that's not the issue.. I think the system in A16 was perhaps not the most well designed. Example - To level armor skill you had to take damage x number of times. So people would literally just rub against a cactus for 3 days straight and get max armor skill. Then to level tool skill, people would just make 1000 wood frames, then upgrade them all with the stone axe then abandon them.

I'm just asking for attribute upgrades from the LBD system. The amount needed to level could be insanely high. No perk unlocks except for those tiny "mini-perks" that I mentioned in OP for the dead levels that don't unlock a level of a perk. This would potentially free up a few points that could go into a perk rather than an attribute level.

[Midas]

These kinds of systems can be grindy and exploitive, especially when it comes to learning things that are counter to what you normally do, like trying to level a weapon that predominantly isn't used very often (like only needing one shot to kill something with a sniper rifle, vs empying a mag of automatic weapon shots into a zombie), or needing to get hit to level durability when you're using light armor and trying NOT to get hit.

Also I do like that the current system requires significant stat investment, which makes the opportunity cost of investing into a stat you're already developing lower than investing into other stats, creating a 'build' system where some characters specialize in some things and are encouraged to focus on the skills within their stat line vs branching out a lot.

If you had to level stats by doing things, you'd basically be at the mercy of gameplay style and happenstance to define your character.

[CoinSpin]

Yah, as pointed out above, the LBD system was simultaneously grindy and also capable of being exploited with some specific methods to max them out (if you wanted to put in the time and boredom to do so). It's often hard to do LBD so that it flows organically and makes you feel like you are actually improving, while making sure it isn't able to be cheated.

Also as mentioned, there are mods that incorporate the old LBD system, either in part or in full. Personally, I've played the Darkness Falls conversion mod quite a bit over the years, and it has a mish-mash of the more current perks, books, and old LBD system set up in character progression - might be worth giving it a look.

[Lord-Knight Fandragon]

I found Dungeon Siege had a good LBD system and is honestly one of my favorite things about that game. You are not stuck being any one class and instead, you create your class based on what skills/weapons you use. Then based on what attribute you lvl determines what gear you can and cant wear.

LBD systems are aight, but yeah, grindy, Skyrim is another LBD game. I would just let wolves and giants wack me until my armor was maxed. It was always tedious as hell making leather bracers until my eyes bled, then enchanting those until my fingers fell off, only to throw them somewhere on the map to get them out of my inventory. Or sell them to the vendor for all thier money.

[RasaNova]

Originally posted by Lord-Knight Fandragon:

I found Dungeon Siege had a good LBD system and is honestly one of my favorite things about that game. You are not stuck being any one class and instead, you create your class based on what skills/weapons you use. Then based on what attribute you lvl determines what gear you can and cant wear.

LBD systems are aight, but yeah, grindy, Skyrim is another LBD game. I would just let wolves and giants wack me until my armor was maxed. It was always tedious as hell making leather bracers until my eyes bled, then enchanting those until my fingers fell off, only to throw them somewhere on the map to get them out of my inventory. Or sell them to the vendor for all thier money.

The original Dungeon Siege... That was a good game! And yes, LbD done right, your stats would adjust to your style of play.

I was happy to see 7D2D switch to point based instead of LBD. For me the game became long stretches of just sitting in the base making hundreds or thousands of stone axes, punching grass, dis/re-assembling guns, etc in order to gain skills.

Although, what the OP is suggesting actually does make sense, with only having base stats raise by using them, the skills themselves could still be bought with points. The problem I think would be leading to bottlenecks, where our playstyle wouldn't increase a certain attribute enough to grab a skill we want which might force us to change the way we play, but that isn't always a bad thing.

[woodsguide]

LBD vs skill points
LBD makes alot more sense to me...

LBD = do a thing and get better at a thing
points system = i chop 10mil trees and now i am an expert swimmer

[vgifford]

Originally posted by woods:

LBD vs skill points
LBD makes alot more sense to me...

LBD = do a thing and get better at a thing
points system = i chop 10mil trees and now i am an expert swimmer

LBD will never be back due to player abuse of the system with spam-crafting.

[Midas]

Originally posted by RasaNova:

Originally posted by Lord-Knight Fandragon:

I found Dungeon Siege had a good LBD system and is honestly one of my favorite things about that game. You are not stuck being any one class and instead, you create your class based on what skills/weapons you use. Then based on what attribute you lvl determines what gear you can and cant wear.

LBD systems are aight, but yeah, grindy, Skyrim is another LBD game. I would just let wolves and giants wack me until my armor was maxed. It was always tedious as hell making leather bracers until my eyes bled, then enchanting those until my fingers fell off, only to throw them somewhere on the map to get them out of my inventory. Or sell them to the vendor for all thier money.

The original Dungeon Siege... That was a good game! And yes, LbD done right, your stats would adjust to your style of play.

I was happy to see 7D2D switch to point based instead of LBD. For me the game became long stretches of just sitting in the base making hundreds or thousands of stone axes, punching grass, dis/re-assembling guns, etc in order to gain skills.

Although, what the OP is suggesting actually does make sense, with only having base stats raise by using them, the skills themselves could still be bought with points. The problem I think would be leading to bottlenecks, where our playstyle wouldn't increase a certain attribute enough to grab a skill we want which might force us to change the way we play, but that isn't always a bad thing.

The problem I think with an LBD system in this case is perks. It's one thing when you just have stats as a scaling bonus to things and nothing more, but when they're actual pre-requisites to mechanics, you're forced to go out of your way to do silly things to unlock those mechanics. Elder Scrolls has always had a way around this by having in-game trainers (and maybe 7D2D could have trainers too, or books that improve stats or add bonuses to how fast they grow or something), but Fallout 4 ditched it entirely in favor of a perk system.

[woodsguide]

abuse of the system with spam-crafting.

some would call that training ;o)
there is only one way to get better at something.. that is practice.

the trade-off to that is lack of immersion..
like i said, chop a million trees and now you can swim better

[Scourn]

there is still mods out there that use the old system , I think darkness falls still does. The issue is it was grinding for the sake of grinding and kept people at their bases crafting or learning stuff they did not want to waste time on so it was changed. It was even worse when perks were connected to levels and skill grinding. I remember constantly leveling construction just to get the huge xp gains so I could learn say steel tools back then. Also leveling weapons was horrible back then, it tooks weeks to level up weapons if you used more than one or two.

The new system works better and makes for a quicker play through more focuses on hordes and building now instead of just grinding. Though the new gamestage system needs a ton of work in my eyes and drags on without raising the experience rates. Getting blunderbusses constantly until gamestage 78 is really annoying.

[Desolator]

I'd much rather see them disconnect the attributes from the skills... Right now certain trees (strength and fortitude) do waaay more for you, regardless of what your playstyle is, than others. This is further worsened by the need to remove any way to *not* play the tower defence every 7 days (People used vehicles to run from the zombies > better spawn ultra fast fliers that wreck you, etc).

I'd much rather have options to pick mining and crafting if I wanted to build a base, while using a sniper rifle to it maximum potential, than having to go shotgun because it's in the str tree like mining.
Build diversity is pretty dead atm, and disconnecting the attr and skills would go a long way towards fixing that