Omniscient Zombie Pathing

[Menghis Khan]

So, I found a house out in a forested area and have been using it as my base of operations. In preparation for the blood moon horde, I built a 6-story tower about 20 blocks away surrounded by a 3-deep ditch with wooden log spikes, completely ringed by wood spike traps. I then built a single-block-wide walkway going from the top of this tower across to the roof of my house, so that I could get on top of the tower without having to remove/replace any spike traps or jump over the ditch. The house had any holes in the walls filled and a reinforced front door.

On horde night, I walked out to my tower from the roof of my house and waited. Then I saw a few zombies spawn, and took them out with my bow, but was wondering where the rest were. Then I heard a bunch of noise coming from my house - they tore through the door and part of a wall, and were climbing the stairs to get onto the roof and use my walkway rather than trying to attack my fortified tower at all!

---

I understand that zombies need some intelligent pathing so that they don't just try to rip through walls when there's an open doorway nearby, or walk through obvious traps if there was an opening nearby, but come on - you're telling me that the zombies are smart enough to walk 20-30 blocks out of their way, tear through a doorway and a wall, and navigate stairs and a narrow walkway to get to me rather than try to wade through my defenses? What's the point of spikes, barbed wire, and other traps when the zombies are smart enough (smarter even then humans, since a human wouldn't instantly know what the most-vulnerable path to get to me was if it wasn't at least somewhat obvious) to path more than 5-10 blocks out of their way to avoid them?

IMO the zombie pathfinding needs to be toned down, they should only be looking for the most efficient route within maybe 5-10 blocks (what they'd be able to easily see), especially for buildings that aren't part of the "existing" map and were player-built or -modified. Or have their trap-avoidance pathing turned down so that they'd rather go through traps than go too far out of their way trying to avoid them. They currently feel way too smart, combining a really good pathing algorithm, danger-avoidance, and weakness-search with a large path-search radius and instant knowledge of even internal structure layouts.

[Jolly]

It sounds more like a problem with where they spawned not their pathing, they spawned like in your back yard or something due to the distance they start spawning, but they can only spawn on dirt (voxel ground, not blocks). Do you have some of that in your house/basement? Which is very unfortunate for your building setup you spent all that time on, not useless though.

...Regardless your pathway to your Horde Base from your house should have some gaps to jump over or at least a couple Hatches that act like a draw bridge and you open them when you're in your base so it's impossible to count that as a pathing for them and then maybe leave a door from your house leading to your base open so their only pathing to you, even from spawning in/around your house, is through your defenses.

I get what you're saying about AI Pathing though, it's always been a problem in every change with it and I don't think there ever will be a perfect AI Pathing for a game like this, it'll never please or be okay for everyone.

[I can't spell]

1000% percent disagree with OP. The zombies are CLEARLY more stupid in this release. There is zero threat when you build up high. It's sad. I want to be threatened when I try to build up high.

[Menghis Khan]

Originally posted by Jolly:

It sounds more like a problem with where they spawned not their pathing, they spawned like in your back yard or something due to the distance they start spawning, but they can only spawn on dirt (voxel ground, not blocks). Do you have some of that in your house/basement? Which is very unfortunate for your building setup you spent all that time on, not useless though.

...Regardless your pathway to your Horde Base from your house should have some gaps to jump over or at least a couple Hatches that act like a draw bridge and you open them when you're in your base so it's impossible to count that as a pathing for them and then maybe leave a door from your house leading to your base open so their only pathing to you, even from spawning in/around your house, is through your defenses.

I get what you're saying about AI Pathing though, it's always been a problem in every change with it and I don't think there ever will be a perfect AI Pathing for a game like this, it'll never please or be okay for everyone.

So they spawned just over a hill from my fortified tower, with my house/base behind me (my tower between the hill they spawn on and my house). They walked right past my fortified tower (started walking towards it, stopped a few blocks short of the spike traps, then turned and kept going) to completely ignore me and walk another 20 blocks further to my house. It's possible that one or two might have spawned on the far side of my house instead, but that doesn't explain why the majority completely bypassed my tower before there were any holes in my house. There is a dirt basement in my house, but none of them spawned there (I have it fully lit with torches and sealed off from the rest of the house, I checked afterwards and there was no damage to it and no zombies down there).

Next time I might try doing the drawbridge thing, or breaking some of the walkway blocks after I get to my tower so that there's no direct connection from my house to my fortified tower. Unfortunately that doesn't fix the issue that the pathing is way too intelligent for zombies, going dozens of blocks out of their way and knowing what the exact path of least resistance is even if it's through en entirely different building.

Originally posted by I can't spell:

1000% percent disagree with OP. The zombies are CLEARLY more stupid in this release. There is zero threat when you build up high. It's sad. I want to be threatened when I try to build up high.

I understand if you disagree, that unfortunately doesn't change the fact that it literally happened even if you haven't experienced it yourself. And as such I respectfully disagree that "the zombies are clearly more stupid in this release" given how intelligently they seem to pathfind around traps and obstacles. Definitely way more intelligent than Alpha 16 or 17, which I think is the last release I played. Then they would always shortest-path through traps even if you have clear lanes through them, so you could make rows of spike traps with staggered gaps and the zombies would just shortest-path straight through.

[Jonnson]

Originally posted by Menghis Khan:

So, I found a house out in a forested area and have been using it as my base of operations. In preparation for the blood moon horde, I built a 6-story tower about 20 blocks away surrounded by a 3-deep ditch with wooden log spikes, completely ringed by wood spike traps. I then built a single-block-wide walkway going from the top of this tower across to the roof of my house, so that I could get on top of the tower without having to remove/replace any spike traps or jump over the ditch. The house had any holes in the walls filled and a reinforced front door.

On horde night, I walked out to my tower from the roof of my house and waited. Then I saw a few zombies spawn, and took them out with my bow, but was wondering where the rest were. Then I heard a bunch of noise coming from my house - they tore through the door and part of a wall, and were climbing the stairs to get onto the roof and use my walkway rather than trying to attack my fortified tower at all!

---

I understand that zombies need some intelligent pathing so that they don't just try to rip through walls when there's an open doorway nearby, or walk through obvious traps if there was an opening nearby, but come on - you're telling me that the zombies are smart enough to walk 20-30 blocks out of their way, tear through a doorway and a wall, and navigate stairs and a narrow walkway to get to me rather than try to wade through my defenses? What's the point of spikes, barbed wire, and other traps when the zombies are smart enough (smarter even then humans, since a human wouldn't instantly know what the most-vulnerable path to get to me was if it wasn't at least somewhat obvious) to path more than 5-10 blocks out of their way to avoid them?

IMO the zombie pathfinding needs to be toned down, they should only be looking for the most efficient route within maybe 5-10 blocks (what they'd be able to easily see), especially for buildings that aren't part of the "existing" map and were player-built or -modified. Or have their trap-avoidance pathing turned down so that they'd rather go through traps than go too far out of their way trying to avoid them. They currently feel way too smart, combining a really good pathing algorithm, danger-avoidance, and weakness-search with a large path-search radius and instant knowledge of even internal structure layouts.

I was going to do the same, as I used to hop from building to building in a city this way at night, connecting the buildings with basically bridges made out of wooden blocks. But you must remember the heat map...all of your furnaces etc attract zombies. And they are smart, these aren't "resident evil" mutants, these zombies are triggered by the blood moon. We have yet to see the story behind this. We only know that humanity has been wiped out and once a week the sky turns red and these zombies KNOW where we are and actively hunt us down. Maybe demonic? Controlled by something sentient, aliens? We don't know. We only know that we gotta board ourselves up and try to survive, and each week we lose more and more of whats left of our humanity as our population dwindles down to extinction. For this reason I build 2 bases, as you did...one for storage, crafting and sleeping, another to fend off and fight these creatures when the sky turns red.

You can just use those wooden box frames as staircases and bridges, going up and over your traps, walls, holes, trenches, moats, fences, etc. And when the bloodmoon approaches, use them to maneuver into your fort, walking backwards and picking them up as you go. Leaving no path to you, except through your gauntlet.

[Jonnson]

I suggest making a pyramid, or cube, with layers of walls, trenches and traps on all sides as you never know which direction they'll be coming from. Seems as though when they attack, they attack as one, as many as 60+ all hitting the same point in your defenses, as to easily bash their way through to you. Layers upon layers slow their advance, giving you precious time to mow down their ranks.

Layers;

trench, spikes, barbed wire, wall, trench, spikes, barbed wire, wall, electric fence, walls, iron spikes, pits with spikes in them, tower...auto turrets, and you.

[DarkEternal]

Don't build your horde base so close to your home base. My horde base is far enough from my home base that I don't have to worry about zombies spawning anywhere near it on horde nights. I get myself in place a few hours before sunset and wait for the fun to begin. Mop up zombies, grab loot bags in the morning, and take my spoils home to sort into my containers. My home base is never in danger.

[Subarc]

The zombies are very dumb since A17. But at the same time exhibit traits that only smart things could do. The OP's experience does show that the zombies have abilities that they shouldnt have. They went for the weakest blocks they needed to to get to their victim. How do they know which blocks are weakest? Who knows, it makes no sense. However you can use this information to beat them. The zombies will ALWAYS go to the weakest point of your base that allows them to gain access to you. So knowing that, all you have to do is make a path with weaker blocks than the surrounding blocks and you can always force them where you want. Some people call this exploiting, i dont agree.
My thoughts, and anyone who has seen me post here before knows this, is to go back to A16 AI. The game was better back then, the zombies were much more unpredictable. they would come from all directions and beat through your walls. Pathing them to a certain spot by making blocks weaker or giving them a path that they could not traverse but thought they could, did not work, ever. Since A17 this game has been easy mode. If they hadnt added the new guns and vehicles since then i would still be playing A16.4

[dichebach]

My approach to bases is perhaps a bit different than others. I build one base, not a "main" and a "horde." I'm not sure why one would do that. I find an iron nugget near water and ideally near a trader and ring it with a 5 x 5 platform with the hole in the middle and the roof 4 blocks up. This early base will only be 3x3x2 inside but that is enough for a bed a campfire and a couple boxes as well as the ladder out the roof. This is all upgraded to cobble asap. The iron nugget is mined as soon as convenient and then the 5x5x2 area under the starting box is mined out and also walled with cobble as soon as possible

Next step is to add an extra layer of wall all the way round which increases the above-ground footprint to 7x7x4 and to add some bars placed "on face" right at the edge of the top. This allows standing over zombies and shooting them. Note: at this point there IS NO ENTRANCE to this stone box other than the hatch in the roof. The jumpy guys could get to that but they don't spawn till higher levels generally. Player access is with recoverable building blocks.

This can suffice for a couple of nights if necessary but ideally progressing to the near final build is preferred.

Next step is to add four columns on the (now 7x7) roof which are three tall. These four columns are all recessed one block from the edge, leaving a one cobble block wide path around them. Next is a roof that will be one block larger than the floor under it, so 9x9. The 1 wide horizontal and the two high vertical gaps are then covered with bars (except for the entrance area).

At this point the main entrance is still the hatch in the roof and the only way in is parkour jump or blocks. Next step adds an actual "front door." Depending on how many players you are and how good you are, this could be accomplished in just a matter of days, but I find I'm putting the finishing touches on the door(s) (there are actually two of them) and the "entrance ramp."

The door is placed right at the edge of the 7x7 roof and in the middle of one side. The 9x9 roof will overhang this and effectlvey the door is 4 blocks up off the ground. The roof will get extended so that there is a 2 high roof that extends out at least 2 blocks from the door in every direction. Zombies have a tendency to "get stacked" on top of one another if they are not in a restricted vertical space and then if they get on your roof that can be bad.

This final step needs to be accomplished in good time so that nothing is half done: build one block projection out under the door by two blocks then corner this walkway to one side by two blocks then angle it down (a ramp). Two blocks above ground near the end of the ramp place another door (enclosed in a stone door frame). This bottom door can be wood but it might wind up taking some damage so some upgraded wood is advisable or even iron. This door is left open and is effectively the "lure door," and yes it works. The zombies see this door and their pathiing also sees the other two actual doors (iron or higher and well-upgraded) and that is their preferred route.

Later on I add a cage on the roof too so that birds cannot moles while farming and of course slowly upgrade everything from wood to iron and by first horde night all of the walls and floor should be cobble.

One last point: there are small 'balconies" with a 1 block gap between them and the entry walkway. If all you want to do is shoot them then you can enclose both sides in bars but if you want to hurl grenades or melee them you need an opening. Best to place a small "column" along the edge of every 1x1 opening so that the chance dogs or spider dudes jump through is minimized.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by dichebach:

My approach to bases is perhaps a bit different than others. I build one base, not a "main" and a "horde."

Simple. Fear of losing everything to a failed defense. When you have a Main base where you do everything, and a Horde base where you fight hordes, your main base is never at risk from a horde and so a failed defense really only risks the items on your character if you have inventory drop enabled, and the horde base itself.

[History's Greatest Monster]

This isn't "Night of the Living Dead: the Video Game" so don't expect them to act the same as in whatever movie you're imagining yourself to be in; they've been said to have a hive mind since way back.
Also, some of the AI behavior is meant to be used for living antagonists when they get introduced; the zombies are just placeholders for them at this stage of the alpha.

[Subarc]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by dichebach:

My approach to bases is perhaps a bit different than others. I build one base, not a "main" and a "horde."

Simple. Fear of losing everything to a failed defense. When you have a Main base where you do everything, and a Horde base where you fight hordes, your main base is never at risk from a horde and so a failed defense really only risks the items on your character if you have inventory drop enabled, and the horde base itself.

With the AI currently, i always build one base. The zombies are easy to control or force into any direction you want them to go to be worried about losing all your stuff. Now if you are just using walls to keep them out with no initial apparent path for them to get to you, yeah, i wouldnt do that. That is a recipe for disaster.

Originally posted by History's Greatest Monster:

This isn't "Night of the Living Dead: the Video Game" so don't expect them to act the same as in whatever movie you're imagining yourself to be in; they've been said to have a hive mind since way back.
Also, some of the AI behavior is meant to be used for living antagonists when they get introduced; the zombies are just placeholders for them at this stage of the alpha.

Where did you see this information? Please link. Because introducing live being hordes doesnt make sense after years of it being zombies. It also doesnt make sense because the FP's are implementing HD models of the zombies as we speak, why would they do that if they were just going to replace them with humans later? But hell, what do i know, im not the dev.

[History's Greatest Monster]

It's not that they're going to remove zombies, they're just testing some of the AI using them for now. Eventually, you'll get to deal with that Duke character that leaves you with the love note when you enter the world, but he and his pals aren't here yet, just the zombies.

[Subarc]

Originally posted by History's Greatest Monster:

It's not that they're going to remove zombies, they're just testing some of the AI using them for now. Eventually, you'll get to deal with that Duke character that leaves you with the love note when you enter the world, but he and his pals aren't here yet, just the zombies.

Where did you see this information though? Ive watched all the dev videos and read all the info i could find from the devs on the games development. Its an interesting idea, i would like to know more.

[hpsfamily]

i dont know where its posted or said but ive heard about bandits or Duke being in the game for a while now. Makes sense to use zombies as placeholders.

Since he hadnt played since a16, it makes sense to me that he wouldnt see these zombies as dumbed down. A16 zombies was mindless lumps. i do agree tho that since they introduced different pathing for various zombies they do act really stupid at times but pathing is hugely different compared to a16

[Subarc]

Originally posted by hpsfamily:

i dont know where its posted or said but ive heard about bandits or Duke being in the game for a while now. Makes sense to use zombies as placeholders.

Since he hadnt played since a16, it makes sense to me that he wouldnt see these zombies as dumbed down. A16 zombies was mindless lumps. i do agree tho that since they introduced different pathing for various zombies they do act really stupid at times but pathing is hugely different compared to a16

My opinion is that the pathing ruined the game. They were mindless pre-A17, but in a more realistic way, they were more unpredictable. They had no pathing pre-A17, they just came and destroyed. Of course you could build a pit and let them drop in etc, but at least you couldnt just make one block weaker and funnel them into a tight area by doing so. Im just tired of always being forced into the same play style, same base style because zombies know the health of all the blocks. It makes some traps useless, spikes for one are near useless now. They plow through one row and all the zombies take that path leaving the other spikes alone. That makes it so you have to force them into a bottleneck or down a certain path to utilize some traps. I have put a lot of hours into this game, and in my opinion, the only good thing they have done since A16 has been adding new vehicles, zombie types, and weapons to the game. If i could mod the vehicles, guns, and zombies into A16.4 i would do it and never look back.