Question for people saying that the game 'isn't hard'

[bjjorick]

I've been thinking about this for awhile since I've seen it a few years ago when i first got the game, and I've constantly seen people saying 'this game isn't hard' or 'the end game is too easy'

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with this. It's not a matter of difficulty, it's a lack of depth. The early game, you have a lot of limitations, and it doesn't take long to figure out how to maximize this to get out of the early game within a few days and start the mid game.

However, to those who say this game is too easy, I'm just curious on your thoughts. It seems like a lack of depth rather then a lack of difficulty to me. In regards to difficulty, there's not much there, they could make zombies do more damage, they can make you die easier, they can make your base fall apart easier, etc. This can already be set in the settings.

So, just wondering your thoughts. Do you really feel that it's a lack of difficulty? or is it that the end game has no depth, just get guns, set up electronics to protect you, and coast?

[Das Marco]

Guns are only for Late,laaate Game above GS300+. Doing the Game with Melee weapons only on Insane is the true fun :D

I've done my own mod to increasing the difficulty alot. on Insane 1200% more Zed Spawn, even more Radiated enemies and also new tier of Monster called Plutoniums, also scaling enemy DMG & enemy LIFE depending on Player LV (+100% up to +400% for both values).

I dont like to hidde in my house at bloodmoon. Bloodnmoon is the best time to farm XP+Loot at the same time :D

[denPes]

Originally posted by bjjorick:

I've been thinking about this for awhile since I've seen it a few years ago when i first got the game, and I've constantly seen people saying 'this game isn't hard' or 'the end game is too easy'

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with this. It's not a matter of difficulty, it's a lack of depth. The early game, you have a lot of limitations, and it doesn't take long to figure out how to maximize this to get out of the early game within a few days and start the mid game.

However, to those who say this game is too easy, I'm just curious on your thoughts. It seems like a lack of depth rather then a lack of difficulty to me. In regards to difficulty, there's not much there, they could make zombies do more damage, they can make you die easier, they can make your base fall apart easier, etc. This can already be set in the settings.

So, just wondering your thoughts. Do you really feel that it's a lack of difficulty? or is it that the end game has no depth, just get guns, set up electronics to protect you, and coast?

I don't think it is fair to say that this game has a lack of depth. The tools you get to play this game are quite the opposite of a lack of depth. You can create and do so much. Everything can be created and destroyed. The crafting/building system is immense. The variation in zombies/spiders/animals are quite big. The only lack is in ones imagination.

The biggest reason for it to become "too" easy" is the fact that obviously the more you play, the more you learn, and the easier it becomes. Because you learn how to defend yourself in pretty much any situation. But you still can be surprised. Everything can be hard when you have not experienced it, and that difficult thing becomes easy if you have encountered it many times, and also had the time to overthink better solutions for the difficulties you had previously. I think that is the main reason.

Would be nice to have an iron man option ingame, because self inflicted iron man mode, doesn't quite feel the same.

[REG | Parasite]

This game can be set from Noob to Hardcore survivor already with the default settings.

When your also capable to edit a few xml. files, you will be able to make the game as hard as you wish, which all together - makes this one of the coolest and best games out there in my opinion.

And thats saying a guy that played games for 23 years.

[bjjorick]

Originally posted by jojo:

instead of lack of depth i think the problem is goal achievement. in the early game you have many goals: get out of the stone age, get better gear, kill zombies to level up, get a vehicle, interact with traders, explore the map, loot the towns. when you do all that stuff (and it doesnt take that long to do it) you have a good base, food, good gear, a vehicle, and you have enough levels to not be pushed to grind for more. yes, it is a sandbox game, and you could do a lot of stuff, but how many people will go out of their way to find things to do? if a lot of people were like that, then other types of games would be replayed a lot more. people would do stuff like speed through a game's story mode, see how far they could get with only certain gear, lots of stuff they could do with a game they already beat, but once they get through the story mode, they might mess around a bit with the end game gear then finish playing story mode. they completed all the goals, and there's no push from the game for the player to play more.

i know, early access, devs are working on it, but this is what i think about the game in its current state

That's kinda what I mean, more or less. Additional depth, maybe something like where you have to form a gang or etc.

I love the game, and while i didn't like a17 or a18, i'm trying a19 and it seems to be a big improvement. There are still some annoying issues (no bodies, meaning that rotten flesh/bone isn't abundant like it should be in a zombie apoc.....) and there are a few 'immersion' issues that are gamey and don't make a lot of sense IMO, but still, I like the survival aspect of the early game that seems to disappear after a bit

I kinda think that farming and the food systems need to be fixed, and having to support a group of people would be great for that (odd, imo, if they plan to add npcs that they choose to add so many automated traps, as npcs would be much better in that regard, and traps/npcs will seem a bit redundant in regards to defense.....)

[Triggerhappy]

Originally posted by denPes:

Originally posted by bjjorick:

I've been thinking about this for awhile since I've seen it a few years ago when i first got the game, and I've constantly seen people saying 'this game isn't hard' or 'the end game is too easy'

The more I think about it, the more I disagree with this. It's not a matter of difficulty, it's a lack of depth. The early game, you have a lot of limitations, and it doesn't take long to figure out how to maximize this to get out of the early game within a few days and start the mid game.

However, to those who say this game is too easy, I'm just curious on your thoughts. It seems like a lack of depth rather then a lack of difficulty to me. In regards to difficulty, there's not much there, they could make zombies do more damage, they can make you die easier, they can make your base fall apart easier, etc. This can already be set in the settings.

So, just wondering your thoughts. Do you really feel that it's a lack of difficulty? or is it that the end game has no depth, just get guns, set up electronics to protect you, and coast?

I don't think it is fair to say that this game has a lack of depth. The tools you get to play this game are quite the opposite of a lack of depth. You can create and do so much. Everything can be created and destroyed. The crafting/building system is immense. The variation in zombies/spiders/animals are quite big. The only lack is in ones imagination.

The biggest reason for it to become "too" easy" is the fact that obviously the more you play, the more you learn, and the easier it becomes. Because you learn how to defend yourself in pretty much any situation. But you still can be surprised. Everything can be hard when you have not experienced it, and that difficult thing becomes easy if you have encountered it many times, and also had the time to overthink better solutions for the difficulties you had previously. I think that is the main reason.

Would be nice to have an iron man option ingame, because self inflicted iron man mode, doesn't quite feel the same.

I know they're planning on adding specialized zeds, which would add combat complexity, and I think they could go further with their interactive combat bonuses (like the "every 3 consecutive hits gives x% more damage on the next shot" from the pistol perk, etc), but it is rather a good example of "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle." There's a lot to do, yes, but there isn't a lot of depth to it, which is what the op was trying to get at. I only started playing in a16, and from what I understand things used to be more complex and they removed that complexity for one reason or another, but they could stand to add some back in.

I'd like to see more poi-specific interactivity in terms of how to plan for your specific crafting needs, and I think the rng aspect of the game is the primary proponent of the lack of challenge. Major crafting components should be tied to challenging scenarios and gameplay, rather than random trash pile looting.

[RasaNova]

Common complaints I've heard are "this hasn't been challenging since version X" or "I've been playing for 7 years and the game is so easy today"

Isn't part of the issue that many of us are hardened vets who could wade in to the shotgun factory with nothing more than a wooden club? (And then wade out with 12 more wooden clubs, but thats another story!)

Most of those who think its easy know how to get set up, how to melee a zombie, ow to build quick and effective bases, where to go for what types of loot, the best ways to stay fed, and do on.

Its no as much an issue of the game being essy or shallow as much as we're just GOOD at it. Are there many people starting with A19 that think its too easy?

[Wygos]

People who say its not hard - using exploits (building unrealistic nonsense)
People who say its hard do a role play.

[Spark Sunbright]

Back when I was new to this game and still played vanilla mode, I played the game as it was intended: I leveled up my character, gathered supplies, crafted better gear, did quests and built my base to withstand the zombie hordes. But about 200 hours into this game, I found that even when playing on insane mode, the end game was too easy. Level up your character, maximize your gear, build a massive base, and you basically turn into a god, which is fun for the first 5 minutes until you realize that all your objectives are complete and there’s nothing left to do.

This, at least to my mind, is not because the game lacks depth, but rather because the game actually has too much depth. (What a thing to complain about, eh?) By depth, I mean things that you can do to make your life easier.

I’m now 600+ hours into the game. But it’s lasted this long for me only because I’ve edited the game to remove a lot of the “depth” that made things too easy. For one, I’ve almost completely disabled crafting (with the exception of basic cooking). By extension, I’ve removed all vehicles and advanced ammo, and of course made it impossible to build any kind of base. I’ve disabled perks (No, seriously.) I’ve removed traders (and, by extension, all of their quests and rewards). I’ve disabled vending machines. Meanwhile, I’ve increased hunger and thirst rates considerably. You could easily argue that my version of the game seriously lacks depth, but these changes (and a number of others) make the game fun for me: I play as a hunter/scavenger, going from town to town, just trying to survive. I don’t build bases, I don’t hoard supplies, I don’t farm, I don’t grind levels. Precisely because I’ve removed so much depth from the game, it is a constant challenge that never gets easy or boring, and I’m having more fun playing this way than I ever did back when I was building bases.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by RasaNova:

Common complaints I've heard are "this hasn't been challenging since version X" or "I've been playing for 7 years and the game is so easy today"

Isn't part of the issue that many of us are hardened vets who could wade in to the shotgun factory with nothing more than a wooden club? (And then wade out with 12 more wooden clubs, but thats another story!)

Most of those who think its easy know how to get set up, how to melee a zombie, ow to build quick and effective bases, where to go for what types of loot, the best ways to stay fed, and do on.

Its no as much an issue of the game being essy or shallow as much as we're just GOOD at it. Are there many people starting with A19 that think its too easy?

Have to agree with this. The large majority of people who complain it's too easy have 100+ hours if not much more, and have long since progressed to insane difficulty with always running zombies, and 25% loot abundance.

The game hasn't really gotten so much easier over the years....It's just that for most of these people, they have so much experience under their belt that the changes made in each version aren't really impactful to their progress. Each new version that makes things harder gets conquered in less time than the version before just on the grounds of player experience in the game, And so it becomes viewed by them that each subsequent version is 'easier' than the one before.

But A19 is, more or less objectively, and for contested reasons, one of the hardest versions to date- It's now much harder to get access to good gear, It takes much longer to gain levels, zombies are more threatening than ever with the new critical hit system, But...None of that matters, because players that have been playing for 1000 hours have so much experience and prior knowledge that these changes barely affect them. Player can't find good gear? "Okay since I only have a wooden club and stone spear, I'll build a base to capitalize on what I do have, Easy peasy." - Past knowledge from run after run lets them know immediately how to build a base that capitalizes on a certain weapon, Or a lack of a ranged weapon due to limited ammunition, or for a number of different circumstances.

Heck, The devs actually reduced the default Difficulty setting from Nomad to Adventurer because A19 was objectively made more difficult than the last few versions before it.


A fair number of newbies on the other hand have blown through and levied complaints that it's way too hard to start out.


There are a few things that have gotten easier, though, for certain. But many things have gotten harder, not easier over the years. Building is easier with the shape menu. Mining is 'easier' now that there are surface nodes that directly point you to ore veins- But before there was gravel patches above ore nodes that gave it away, so this isn't that much easier. Getting a forge was made easier should the player opt to spend points that way; Previously it often took till day 3 or 4, but now it can be done in 1 if you dont mind spending a skill point- This gives you iron weapons and arrows a few days earlier. Temperature management has been simplified, and is recognizably easier. Horde night ending early makes early game hordes more managable, Gamestage balancing means the game is, on the whole, scaled to your progress so it's always at a managable difficulty; Where previously the game got harder week by week whether you were prepared or not.

But zombies have gotten harder, Managing injuries has gotten more complex and gaining injuries in combat is a real danger.. Armor is absolutely imperative now where it could be ignored for a long time before, due to bleed and infection chances. Managing food and water has gotten harder, for good or ill. Zombies can no longer be stopped by a concrete wall and totally ignored; The player can no longer build an underground bunker 2ft under the ground and be totally untouchable by zombies, and a lot more......


Not every player is happy with these changes, of course; But they objectively make the game more easy or difficult respectively. On the whole, The game is much harder now. It's just not recognizable to long time players because we've gotten so used to just adapting to whatever change comes and/or gave up adapting and only play on whatever version floats our happy boat.

[bjjorick]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by RasaNova:

Common complaints I've heard are "this hasn't been challenging since version X" or "I've been playing for 7 years and the game is so easy today"

Isn't part of the issue that many of us are hardened vets who could wade in to the shotgun factory with nothing more than a wooden club? (And then wade out with 12 more wooden clubs, but thats another story!)

Most of those who think its easy know how to get set up, how to melee a zombie, ow to build quick and effective bases, where to go for what types of loot, the best ways to stay fed, and do on.

Its no as much an issue of the game being essy or shallow as much as we're just GOOD at it. Are there many people starting with A19 that think its too easy?

Have to agree with this. The large majority of people who complain it's too easy have 100+ hours if not much more, and have long since progressed to insane difficulty with always running zombies, and 25% loot abundance.

The game hasn't really gotten so much easier over the years....It's just that for most of these people, they have so much experience under their belt that the changes made in each version aren't really impactful to their progress. Each new version that makes things harder gets conquered in less time than the version before just on the grounds of player experience in the game, And so it becomes viewed by them that each subsequent version is 'easier' than the one before.

But A19 is, more or less objectively, and for contested reasons, one of the hardest versions to date- It's now much harder to get access to good gear, It takes much longer to gain levels, zombies are more threatening than ever with the new critical hit system, But...None of that matters, because players that have been playing for 1000 hours have so much experience and prior knowledge that these changes barely affect them. Player can't find good gear? "Okay since I only have a wooden club and stone spear, I'll build a base to capitalize on what I do have, Easy peasy." - Past knowledge from run after run lets them know immediately how to build a base that capitalizes on a certain weapon, Or a lack of a ranged weapon due to limited ammunition, or for a number of different circumstances.

Heck, The devs actually reduced the default Difficulty setting from Nomad to Adventurer because A19 was objectively made more difficult than the last few versions before it.


A fair number of newbies on the other hand have blown through and levied complaints that it's way too hard to start out.


There are a few things that have gotten easier, though, for certain. But many things have gotten harder, not easier over the years. Building is easier with the shape menu. Mining is 'easier' now that there are surface nodes that directly point you to ore veins- But before there was gravel patches above ore nodes that gave it away, so this isn't that much easier. Getting a forge was made easier should the player opt to spend points that way; Previously it often took till day 3 or 4, but now it can be done in 1 if you dont mind spending a skill point- This gives you iron weapons and arrows a few days earlier. Temperature management has been simplified, and is recognizably easier. Horde night ending early makes early game hordes more managable, Gamestage balancing means the game is, on the whole, scaled to your progress so it's always at a managable difficulty; Where previously the game got harder week by week whether you were prepared or not.

But zombies have gotten harder, Managing injuries has gotten more complex and gaining injuries in combat is a real danger.. Armor is absolutely imperative now where it could be ignored for a long time before, due to bleed and infection chances. Managing food and water has gotten harder, for good or ill. Zombies can no longer be stopped by a concrete wall and totally ignored; The player can no longer build an underground bunker 2ft under the ground and be totally untouchable by zombies, and a lot more......


Not every player is happy with these changes, of course; But they objectively make the game more easy or difficult respectively. On the whole, The game is much harder now. It's just not recognizable to long time players because we've gotten so used to just adapting to whatever change comes and/or gave up adapting and only play on whatever version floats our happy boat.

I personally think that's where my lack of enjoyment comes from, I enjoyed the world difficulty more then the 'zombies hit hard' side of it. If you get trapped in a group of zombies, you're dead, sure, but getting hit by a zombie once and you're likely dead from bleeding to death or getting stunned, or etc. Zombie get cheap hits too through walls, so it's more reason I don't enjoy it.

I guess this game got popular as a zombie shooter rather then a survival style game though, but i'm not much of a fps player.

Regardless, if i had teh skills, i think it would be great if the actual survival side was much better handled/balanced and that there was much more depth given there then anywhere else. The farming has gotten stupid simple, plant a seed once and that's it, food forever. Guessing this game's direction is going more and more away from what i love.

Regardless, a19 does seem pretty interesting so far, but I think i still prefer a15/a16 for the reasons mentioned above. That had less zombies and more world survival.

[RasaNova]

Originally posted by Spark Sunbright:

Snipped account of removing much of the game from the game

I'm not gonna lie. That actually sounds challenging AF, and fun.

[RasaNova]

It's really interesting to me how people have opposite reactions over difficulty in so many parts of the game.

"Farming is easy due to only having to plant 1 seed to get food forever" vs "farming is hard now due to the crafting cost of plots and the difficulty of unlocking seeds"

"Zombies are easy now due to poor AI or predictable pathing" vs "zombies are hard now due to their rage sprint or erratic pathing"

"Gesring up is easy now thanks to traders and loot stash in every poi" vs "gearing up is hard now due to crafting requirements and gsmestage gating"

"Food is easy now due to vending machines. abundance of canned food, ease of hunting/farming" vs "food is hard now due to rapidly decreasing hunger and difficulty of hunting/farming"

I don't know... To me this, and the fact that 10 people could give 10 answers about the skills they're "forced to take" all points to a decently balanced game.

[JimmyIowa]

I'd say it's like pretty much any other activity, game or otherwise. Do it enough and it becomes not hard. That stands to reason. Activity x might be hard after 10 hours of trying, and second nature after 200 hours.

As for 7dtd specifically, I know what rooms of what POI's to raid on day 1 to get the things I need. I know what challenges to prepare for and how. For example I have infection cures, food, and bandages before 10am on day 1. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the weapons. I know how to recognize a collapsing floor, and a likely spot for a hidden zombie. I know how to kill a angry boar on insane without taking any damage. In other words, there are very few surprises anymore. This makes it not hard.

And at this point, quite frankly, the combat is reflexive muscle memory. The zombie animations are limited, and easily countered when recognized. After enough times countering an enemy animation, the "recognize animation in the first few frames and counter it" becomes a conditioned response that requires no effort. So, yes, the combat in 7dtd is not hard either. In fact easy is not even the right word. Combat against a mob on high difficulty settings goes beyond easy and into the realm of conditioned response while daydreaming about other things. But only because I have multiple thousand hours in the game.

However, I think saying the game is lacking in depth is strange, given that it easily has more depth than probably 99% of the games in my library.

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Wygos:

People who say its not hard - using exploits

If simply kill zombies while easily avoiding their swings by staying mobile is an "exploit", then I guess I am using that exploit. Otherwise, I don't know of any exploit I use - and the game is definitely not hard.

[FreakyWallnut32]

eventually looting becomes a waste of time since the hordes drop basically all the ♥♥♥♥ you need