When do we get better SMGs?

[Hexerin]

Wasn't the whole point to the weapon additions in A19 to ensure all the weapon paths have a full three tiers of weapons? Where's my P90...

[Commando]

Agree, SMG's need some love.

[JimmyIowa]

The SMG isn't a separate class of weapon. The SMG is a pistol and benefits from the gunslinger / agility tree.

[Hexerin]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

The SMG isn't a separate class of weapon. The SMG is a pistol and benefits from the gunslinger / agility tree.

If you want to go that route of logic, let's go ahead and take it the full way.

The gunslinger skill incorporates four weapons. Pistol, SMG-5, 44 Magnum, and Desert Vulture. Compare this to every other skill, which only has three. Logically speaking, these three classes of weapons should be split and given their own skills. Handguns, magnums, and SMGs.

Now let's look at this from another perspective.

There are three semi automatics in the gunslinger skill. Pistol, 44 Magnum, and Desert Vulture. There is also the odd duck automatic in the SMG-5.

The semi automatics have a natural three tier progression, while the SMG-5 sits alone at an awkward spot between first and second tier (leaning towards second, though).

The actual logical thing to do here is split the SMG-5 off of gunslinger, give it an SMG-centric skill, and then add two additional SMGs to fill out the three tier design. Something for first tier, and something for third tier (or shift the SMG-5 to first tier, whatever works best).

[JimmyIowa]

Originally posted by Hexerin:

If you want to go that route of logic, let's go ahead and take it the full way.

I wasn't really going a "route of logic". I was just letting you know what is factually in the game right now. That's all. ;-)

Originally posted by Hexerin:

The actual logical thing to do here is split the SMG-5 off of gunslinger, give it an SMG-centric skill, and then add two additional SMGs to fill out the three tier design.

Okay, I'm not sure why that's the actual logical thing to do, in your opinion. Seems completely arbitrary to me, and just something you want rather than anything to do with "logic".

In any case, the problem with that idea is there is already one line of ranged weapons per attribute.

Perception - rifles
Strength - shotguns
Fortitude - machine guns
Agility - pistols (with smg)
Int - robotic turrets

If you make a new full smg line of ranged weapons and assign it to some attribute that now has two full lines of weapon choices, then you have unbalanced the attributes, and everyone who doesn't have two lines of weapons will be complaining.

[Hexerin]

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

attributes

I mean, the attributes shouldn't even exist anyways. They do literally nothing but stifle player choice in character growth. There's no difference between them, they're just an arbitrary thing you have to dump ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of skill points into for no real gain.

[Zaroff]

My friends and I just got 2 lvl 6 SMGs tonight we’re lvl 140 and 125. Prior to that never saw one.

We have yet to see a desert vulture even a lvl 1. We can craft lvl 5s but still haven’t seen any in loot.

[↯Zindy⛦]

I would like to see an smg tree seperate from the pistol tree as they have nothing in common a anyway. There should also be very crude versions of the pistol and smg you can make out of pipes and metal etc to progress to actual guns if we follow the logic of the other weapon categories. Example; from blunderbuss to shotgun and bow to compound bow.

[Kuromiya]

Originally posted by Hexerin:

Originally posted by JimmyIowa:

The SMG isn't a separate class of weapon. The SMG is a pistol and benefits from the gunslinger / agility tree.

If you want to go that route of logic, let's go ahead and take it the full way.

The gunslinger skill incorporates four weapons. Pistol, SMG-5, 44 Magnum, and Desert Vulture. Compare this to every other skill, which only has three. Logically speaking, these three classes of weapons should be split and given their own skills. Handguns, magnums, and SMGs.

Now let's look at this from another perspective.

There are three semi automatics in the gunslinger skill. Pistol, 44 Magnum, and Desert Vulture. There is also the odd duck automatic in the SMG-5.

The semi automatics have a natural three tier progression, while the SMG-5 sits alone at an awkward spot between first and second tier (leaning towards second, though).

The actual logical thing to do here is split the SMG-5 off of gunslinger, give it an SMG-centric skill, and then add two additional SMGs to fill out the three tier design. Something for first tier, and something for third tier (or shift the SMG-5 to first tier, whatever works best).

Who said there needs to be numerical parity in the number of weapons affected by any given perk? And who said weapon perks cover exactly 3 weapons? Clearly, not the devs. They're perfectly happy making perks applicable to 4 weapons as it is (Gunslinger, Brawler, Shotgun), so why not 5 or 6?


Remember, Gunslinger affects small firearms that use 9mm and magnum ammo. These are backup weapons: 9mm being a cheap substitute for automatic weapons, and magnums being a cheap substitute for rifles and shotguns. Even with a Tier 3 9mm, sinking points into Gunslinger would not be optimal unless Gunslinger provided players with a more flexible tactical loadout than similar perks. Having additional weapons tied to Gunslinger when compared to other weapon perks is a matter of game balance: you trade killing power for flexibility and ease-of-use.


Consider Archery. Archery currently governs 5 weapons - T1-3 Bows and T2-3 Crossbows. That's not excessive, though, and if you notice, no one has thought to complain. Bows and crossbows have numerous disadvantages when compared to firearms, so getting a little extra variety out of your Archery perk is seen as a fair tradeoff.


Gunslinger should get the same consideration.




There is not now, nor has there ever been, an established principle in this game that perks must cover 3 weapons.

There IS, however, clearly a plan to have at least one Tier 3 equivalent for each class of weapon. 9mm is (afaik) the only one lacking this at the moment, so it follows that 9mm should get one.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by KickySonichu:

There IS, however, clearly a plan to have at least one Tier 3 equivalent for each class of weapon. 9mm is (afaik) the only one lacking this at the moment, so it follows that 9mm should get one.

The SMG is and has been the T3 equivalent for 9mm. What 9mm is missing is actually the Tier 1; There's no stone age equivalent. Only T2/Iron (Pistol) and T3/Steel (SMG) -- Same is true for the magnums, T2/Iron is the Magnum, T3/steel is the new desert vulture.

Pistols aren't alone here though, there's not really a stone age equivalent for rifles or automatics either; While Shotguns have the Blunderbuss. So it could be argued that Pistol IS Tier 1; but then we're missing the T2- A better pistol that splits the difference between pistol and SMG.

[Kuromiya]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by KickySonichu:

There IS, however, clearly a plan to have at least one Tier 3 equivalent for each class of weapon. 9mm is (afaik) the only one lacking this at the moment, so it follows that 9mm should get one.

The SMG is and has been the T3 equivalent for 9mm. What 9mm is missing is actually the Tier 1; There's no stone age equivalent. Only T2/Iron (Pistol) and T3/Steel (SMG) -- Same is true for the magnums, T2/Iron is the Magnum, T3/steel is the new desert vulture.

Pistols aren't alone here though, there's not really a stone age equivalent for rifles or automatics either; While Shotguns have the Blunderbuss. So it could be argued that Pistol IS Tier 1; but then we're missing the T2- A better pistol that splits the difference between pistol and SMG.

Ah, ok. I think most players feel the current SMG is a little underpowered for T3, but the official designation is Pistol T2, SMG T3 then? I think a new T2 9mm would be a solid solution in that case - perhaps a weaker/less efficient SMG, such as a Scorpion or Uzi. Again, Gunslinger guns are less powerful than competing types of weapons, so having more variety is a solid tradeoff, and T2 access to auto fire would be great.

Regarding Shotguns: iirc there are 4 shotguns right now, blunderbuss, double-barrel, pump, and auto. What are those considered? T1 Blunder, T2 double and pump, T3 auto?

[Triggerhappy]

Considering the loot table doesn't give you SMGs til late stages of the game, I think they consider it a top-tier 9mm-class lootable. I got an m60 before an smg. What they have are 9mm weapons and magnum weapons, two tiers each. I imagine they may fill in the top spots with the 'legendary' weapons later.

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by KickySonichu:

There IS, however, clearly a plan to have at least one Tier 3 equivalent for each class of weapon. 9mm is (afaik) the only one lacking this at the moment, so it follows that 9mm should get one.

The SMG is and has been the T3 equivalent for 9mm. What 9mm is missing is actually the Tier 1; There's no stone age equivalent. Only T2/Iron (Pistol) and T3/Steel (SMG) -- Same is true for the magnums, T2/Iron is the Magnum, T3/steel is the new desert vulture.

Pistols aren't alone here though, there's not really a stone age equivalent for rifles or automatics either; While Shotguns have the Blunderbuss. So it could be argued that Pistol IS Tier 1; but then we're missing the T2- A better pistol that splits the difference between pistol and SMG.

Stone is really tier 0. Iron is tier 1, steel tier 2, and motor tools tier 3. Wood club, baseball bat, steel club, missing tier 3. Primitive bow, wood bow (which requires parts because ♥♥♥♥ it), missing tier 2, composite bow. I imagine they consider the blunderbuss to be the tier0 firearm for every class of weapon, even though it really oughtta be considered a t0 shotgun.

[Desolator]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by KickySonichu:

There IS, however, clearly a plan to have at least one Tier 3 equivalent for each class of weapon. 9mm is (afaik) the only one lacking this at the moment, so it follows that 9mm should get one.

The SMG is and has been the T3 equivalent for 9mm. What 9mm is missing is actually the Tier 1; There's no stone age equivalent. Only T2/Iron (Pistol) and T3/Steel (SMG) -- Same is true for the magnums, T2/Iron is the Magnum, T3/steel is the new desert vulture.

Pistols aren't alone here though, there's not really a stone age equivalent for rifles or automatics either; While Shotguns have the Blunderbuss. So it could be argued that Pistol IS Tier 1; but then we're missing the T2- A better pistol that splits the difference between pistol and SMG.

The idea of there being a "stone age" in this game is laughable in the first place. The A19 loot changes have shown that, and there are plenty of loot related posts that show you exactly why.
If you want a decent loot progression it should be:
Pistols | Rifles | Shotguns | AR | Robotics | Bows | Melee
T1: pistol | none | blunder | no | sledge | Bow | stone tier
T2: SMG | rifle | double | AK | scrap | comp | iron
T2.5 rev | hunt | pump | AK+| SMG | comp+| steel
T3: DE | sniper| AA12 | MG | shotgun | comp+| Steel+

this makes far more sense in a game where guns and everything have been around since before the apocalypse (this is heavily based on the US after all). Stop the whole T1 = stone age nonsense and make a decent progression system where certain guns might not be available as a drop in the early game, but *some* decent pistols etc can still be found. Yea,h not every weapon has 3 tiers, but whatever, that can always be shuffled around as needed.

[Miss.Squidgy]

Tbh rather have a Kriss vector instead of a P90.
Or the Kriss could be T3 and the P90 T2?

[Tanaka Khan]

Originally posted by Hexerin:

There are three semi automatics in the gunslinger skill. Pistol, 44 Magnum, and Desert Vulture. .

Actually the Magnum is a revolver not a semi automatic.

[whats82]

I never use a magnum beside going to the trader. 5 round capacity, can't silence, bad for PoI, bad for horde night. Just can't find a niche for it. Especially now bows got a huge sneak damage bump.