This is really a good thing please don't call it SpyWare and panic!

[strask]

news: In Alpha 19, and presumably going forward, the game will include software from GameSparks to collect statistics about things like

• When players pick up broken glass, how often do they just throw it out again?
  
• Do people get too many feathers? Is the hypothesis that overabundance of feathers makes eggs more rare than they should be, due to players not wanting to even look in the nests because too many feathers?
  
• Blah blah blah more questions that they could make the game better especially loot balance if they knew the answers.

The Gamesparks software, as far as I can figure out from a verbal description on the livestream, (followed by actual research, of course) basically just sends your gameplay decisions up to the GameSparks cloud for storage. Then once there is data to look at, the Fun Pimps can sit around with a thing called Nimbus (which is open source software and may be found at nimbusproject.org ) and run custom data science queries on it.

It's pretty cool stuff.

Oh also, GameSparks-the-company also sells some products and features that support microtransactions. And some stuff that looks like actual spyware. And you know, I bet about a third of the things they sell could be reasonably criticized without even needing to think much about it.

In this case, though, I'm pretty sure that the fun pimps are just using GameSparks for the https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/gamesparks-game-data-service/ bucket to hold the data in, and a virtual machine to run Nimbus on and suck up all the data. All the analysis is inside fun pimps, in my rose-colored-glasses imagination.

So, presuming that's the case, I do not object in any way. I also really really don't want any community panic over this. And I'm sure at least once some joker is going to post "I decompiled the game and the spyware is evil bad stuff and also please use my referral code over on some random other game community" or whatever.

So, I would like to volunteer my time to the community, in parallel with whomever else decides to independently do it, to dissect the analytics traffic between my machine and the GameSparks servers, to find (hopefully reassuring, but otherwise at least useful) evidence about what exactly gets sent.

I run the game on linux so I can also use strace(1) to peek at every system call, it's a super great tool and I hope every linux user knows it exists. :)

So down below this first post, we can talk about "what's up with spyware" and speculate about what we think the funpimps would do or how this is implemented or what our concerns are with this whole addition to the game. Meanwhile up here, I'll update the post a bit as I think of easy tips for fellow analytics inspection enthusiasts, and when the experimentals phase begins and we can grab our own copies of A19, then we'll also presumably discuss findings as they are made.

Just basically doing this so that the inevitable controversy at least has a structured, orderly beginning. :) And keep in mind my presumption is that everything is totally cool. Cheers all.

Update: Prime (one of the fun pimps devs) was asked during a June 14/15 (depending on time zone) livestream on twitch, about the analytics. He said the best person to ask would be present on the stream on June 17. UPDATE UPDATE: According to Roland, Programmers will be answering questions on June 24, not June 17. Roland speculates Prime may have mixed up the two dates.

[The Undead Watcher]

And i was just liking this game,
well i guess if you show me the middle finger im gonna show you mine by a negative review then. Shame it has to be this way.

[MacDeltaOne]

-MortVent-

Again you are not understanding the reality of the situation. Which is perfectly fine. The information is not out there. If it were out there it would be in game for ALL eyes to see.

I never signed or agreed to a contract to explicitly not have a disclaimer in game stating they are doing Data Collection from A19 thru Gold.

[BlackDawn1975]

awesome more spyware, unless this can be disabled looks like i will not be playing this game anymore

[MortVent]

MacDeltaOne eredeti hozzászólása:

-MortVent-

Again you are not understanding the reality of the situation. Which is perfectly fine. The information is not out there. If it were out there it would be in game for ALL eyes to see.

I never signed or agreed to a contract to explicitly not have a disclaimer in game stating they are doing Data Collection from A19 thru Gold.

The information is in the EULA that everyone was required to agree to on purchase that they could collect the information at their discretion. So yes you did agree to it being something they could do at any time.

The information on them actually doing it is in the patch notes. Again publicly available for all.

The fact you chose not to read the terms you agreed to doesn't mean the information wasn't there in front of you.. Just that you and them chose not to read it and now complain about the consequences of your choice in not doing so.

If people can't be bothered to read something they are agreeing to... that's their fault.

A popup was not in the terms you agreed to, just that they could collect it.

You want to change the agreement after the fact... to include the popup

[Sprocket66]

You pro spyware people keep arguing that you legally CAN spy on people. We have already stated that you CAN get away with it.

Many of us are arguing what they SHOULD do. Ethically, morally and just for plain common sense. They will lose business and customer good will this way.

People keep arguing that you clicked a box years ago when you bought this, so bend over and take it. Look at when the 'box' pops up. After you have purchased the product from steam and after you have installed it on your system. Does it show anywhere on the store page for this title?

No, you see it after the fact. But it is all very legal. Not very ethical or moral. And yes, legally it is our fault that we missed that clause in the legal sleight of hand.

The fact is that people who are concerned about spyware and data collection won't just take it. We'll just take our business elsewhere.

I've said it before, this data collection is all probably very harmless. This probably won't effect my life at all. I use a sequestered gaming system, I use vpn, I use anti virus and malware protection, I use a firewall, and so on. So the odds of something happening are very low.

However, years ago, back in 2008 right after Wrath of the Lich King came out our family played Warcraft together. My wife, my oldest son and I put hundreds of hours into the game and had a ton of fun together. Then they started having trouble with chinese gold farmers in the game. All of a sudden my son and I couldn't access our accounts, they had been hacked. Not on our side (strong passwords and much of the above protections), on Blizzard side. It took us weeks to get that straightened out. We lost all item on the account and a few toons were either sold or deleted, but we got most of the toons back, even if naked. So we started rebuilding the charactors. After a couple of weeks it happened again. This time we couldn't get anyone from Blizzard to help us. All we got was a boilerplate response that our accounts were involved in gold farming and were permanantly deleted. Repeated attempts got no answers or response from Blizzard. So we moved on and haven't purchased anything that Blizzard was involved with ever again.

The moral of the story is that data leaks and hacking happen. And that the way a company deals with a customer is important. Customers that care about these issues will remember and allocate their money accordingly.

[MortVent]

Sprocket66 eredeti hozzászólása:

You pro spyware people keep arguing that you legally CAN spy on people. We have already stated that you CAN get away with it.

Many of us are arguing what they SHOULD do. Ethically, morally and just for plain common sense. They will lose business and customer good will this way.

People keep arguing that you clicked a box years ago when you bought this, so bend over and take it. Look at when the 'box' pops up. After you have purchased the product from steam and after you have installed it on your system. Does it show anywhere on the store page for this title?

No, you see it after the fact. But it is all very legal. Not very ethical or moral. And yes, legally it is our fault that we missed that clause in the legal sleight of hand.

The fact is that people who are concerned about spyware and data collection won't just take it. We'll just take our business elsewhere.

I've said it before, this data collection is all probably very harmless. This probably won't effect my life at all. I use a sequestered gaming system, I use vpn, I use anti virus and malware protection, I use a firewall, and so on. So the odds of something happening are very low.

However, years ago, back in 2008 right after Wrath of the Lich King came out our family played Warcraft together. My wife, my oldest son and I put hundreds of hours into the game and had a ton of fun together. Then they started having trouble with chinese gold farmers in the game. All of a sudden my son and I couldn't access our accounts, they had been hacked. Not on our side (strong passwords and much of the above protections), on Blizzard side. It took us weeks to get that straightened out. We lost all item on the account and a few toons were either sold or deleted, but we got most of the toons back, even if naked. So we started rebuilding the charactors. After a couple of weeks it happened again. This time we couldn't get anyone from Blizzard to help us. All we got was a boilerplate response that our accounts were involved in gold farming and were permanantly deleted. Repeated attempts got no answers or response from Blizzard. So we moved on and haven't purchased anything that Blizzard was involved with ever again.

The moral of the story is that data leaks and hacking happen. And that the way a company deals with a customer is important. Customers that care about these issues will remember and allocate their money accordingly.

Customers that care would read before clicking, not rage after the fact they agreed to something.

As for morals, ethics, etc. Whose ethics and morals should we use? They are not universal things... As the gold farmers in your story saw what they did as both morally and ethically okay for them to do so...

You were given the option to read and understand the terms and conditions on purchase, instead you clicked okay. No sympathy for someone that didn't follow the most basic of common sense and read what they are agreeing to. I bet you don't know that most commercial VPNs have to record what you do for legal reasons and it's stated in their agreements...

IF you were responsible and concerned you wouldn't have bought the game to begin with after reading the terms. But like most you wanted the shiny and choose to blame others for the bad decision you made to not read the terms.

[MacDeltaOne]

MortVent eredeti hozzászólása:

The information is in the EULA that everyone was required to agree to on purchase that they could collect the information at their discretion. So yes you did agree to it being something they could do at any time.

The information on them actually doing it is in the patch notes. Again publicly available for all.

The fact you chose not to read the terms you agreed to doesn't mean the information wasn't there in front of you.. Just that you and them chose not to read it and now complain about the consequences of your choice in not doing so.

If people can't be bothered to read something they are agreeing to... that's their fault.

A popup was not in the terms you agreed to, just that they could collect it.

You want to change the agreement after the fact... to include the popup

You are wrong about me. I do not know why you are assuming baseless facts against me. Please target someone else for your weird argument.

I am advocating for a 'right to know' what is happening with the software installed, 7d2d.
I am not wanting to change the agreement after the fact.
Please stop with this baseless speculation about me. Obviously you have not read the entire thread and are just trying to be argumentative.

We have already stated facts on numbers about how many people read the forums where patch notes are posted, also numbers on how many people have watched the Dev streams. The vast majority of new customers to any game do not hunt down patch notes to read. So this Dev team, TFP, if they do not put into their game a disclaimer on Data Collection, they are actively trying to hide the fact their software has third party data collection included.

Again, I am advocating for the 'Right to Know'.

How are you not understanding my position?

Others in this thread have stated they want an option.

I keep stating, advocating, for new and old customers, The Right To Know data is being collected from A19 thru Gold.

In your point of view, it is ok to Not inform new and old customers about data collection.
In you point of view, it is ok for TFP and GameSparks to mine any type of data they want to mine. Even if bank accounts and credit cards, passwords and personal information gets mined.
Not saying it will, but your point of view, MortVent, it is perfectly fine because the EULA says they can.

We are two different people with two different points of view. Please stop downgrading me because my point of view is different than yours. I feel there is nothing wrong with letting new and old customers know harmless game play data is being collected. Obviously you strongly disagree, which is fine, we can disagree.

I am not speculating any of your actions nor am I making stuff up or trying to put words in your mouth like you are doing to me.

Again ---- ADVOCATING for The Right To Know.

[MortVent]

The problem is you are advocating for something that was already provided in both the License agreement and patch notes.

If the users/consumers care they would already be aware of it. Those that choose to remain ignorant are making a choice to do so.

I advocate for people accepting responsibility for their actions, including choosing not to read the patch notes or agreements they blindly accept. It's not the company or anyone's responsibility to shove the information down their throats.. Microsoft tried that with permissions and popups to prevent users from doing stupid things... they just got in the habit of clicking okay to everything and going on. (just ask any tech support team, users will not bother to read a pop up and click okay to anything to get that little dancing icon, wallpaper, etc... So they will do the same with a pop up in game. And just like installing real spyware they will blame everyone else)

Till they break the laws, they haven't done anything wrong. They state what they are going to collect, and if they go above that into illegal actions or beyond what you agreed to let them collect at purchase then scream and shout all the way to the lawyers.

[Sprocket66]

Mort,

I don't think that a crook believes that they are moral or ethical while they are stealing stuff from you so I don't get your point on the gold farmers from above.

I don't believe right and wrong aren't a fuzzy or arbitrary concept. But since you are arguing that point, I'll just have to respectfully disagree and leave it at that.

Since you prefer to push the legal aspect, I believe most of us have already granted you that point. Yes, they have the legal ability to collect your data if you choose to play. Point stipulated. Fewer will choose to play.

In almost every post you state or imply that we are stupid, lazy, tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists for not wanting to play a game with spyware. Fine, if being against spyware makes me those things in your eyes, so be it. I'll give you that point as well.

So we will just leave those points to you.

How about we look at the angle of smart marketing and cost benefit. Times are tough in the business world and there is a lot of competition in the gaming industry. There are a lot of games to choose from.

Do you think it is smart marketing to alienate a small but vocal percentage of current and potential customers for no gain (since they won't buy or participate anyhow)? I don't believe that is smart marketing.

Do you think that the cost of adding an opt out option would be worth keeping 3% (I believe the number is much higher, but that is the number argues by other posters) of current customers while not turning off a percentage of potential customers.

No, I don't have the information on how much it would cost to have the data collection company click that box in their software to enable that option, but I'm guessing it is reasonable compared to the benefit of customer retention and increased market share.

Yes, having the added data will make it easier for the Pimps to develop the game. Yes, the majority of people won't opt out, leaving the Pimps with the data they need.

But by having that option they will buy good will with existing customers and encourage trust with potential future customers. That good or bad will also extends to other or future titles that the company may be working on and will further effect the bottom line.

I just don't see a down side for the Pimps if they give the customer a choice. I see only up sides from a business perspective.

[MortVent]

A person can feel they are being both moral and ethical stealing from others, easily. They deserve it more, rich vs poor (good ol Robin Hood), etc. Same for many other things that one social group feels is wrong is fine elsewhere (compare regional changes to games for nudity, violence, content. Such as blood being changed to green, removal of certain mobs such as skeletons/ghosts for Chinese market, etc) Morals, ethics and right/wrong can vary greatly in the world. There may be similarities but the codes are individualistic and in many cases very flexible hence the use of codified laws (which are hard rules for society to live in due to the very fluid and often different moral and ethical standards of individuals..)

As for reviews, the way the system has been manipulated and abused the bad reviews would likely trigger the same view as the review bombs on other games.

The fear over analytics of game play being collected as part of the alpha stage of the game's development because of what might happen... can also apply to the very system used to post here, access your library, etc.. Steam can and does track a good bit of your gameplay data...

Hell the companies already track your gameplay data for achievements which get added to your profile after all. This is just them using a far better tool than they could code in house to help them better understand the gameplay and balance issues

So it is a bit premature to scream and shout about them maybe doing something when they have already been collecting game play data from you in the achievement systems. It's no different than them adding a ton of hidden achievement trackers that you don't know about. The difference is the system for achievements doesn't really help or work well enough for balance/gameplay tweaking.

[Sprocket66]

You didn't address any of the questions about if this will be good for their business.

[MortVent]

Sprocket66 eredeti hozzászólása:

You didn't address any of the questions about if this will be good for their business.

You assume that it will hurt, I clearly stated that the way reviews have been manipulated and abused that most consumers are not going to pay any attention. They are simply going to buy the game trending on twitch and youtube that looks cool...

[Tux]

Sprocket66 eredeti hozzászólása:

You pro spyware people keep arguing that you legally CAN spy on people. We have already stated that you CAN get away with it.

the major problem here with all of this is that your internet persona...is not your identity

so until that question is resolved then really all your actions on your games and on Steam is by definition anonymous for the very same people can post comments on Steam knowing full well readers of the posts can not find them, call them, or know their real name.

[Noxsa]

people please, Single players add the game to your firewall and block it from internet access and their spyware is mute! online players, need to block the port this spyware is using to send out the collected data "will need investigating before i know the port" and again the spyware mute! its your data and play behavior, if they do not ask or provide an option to opt out. block it your self.

this is not new people we all "well most" do it to microsoft, we all installed a tool to block or disable the spyware the OS has!

[Tux]

Noxsa eredeti hozzászólása:

people please, Single players add the game to your firewall and block it from internet access and their spyware is mute! online players, need to block the port this spyware is using to send out the collected data "will need investigating before i know the port" and again the spyware mute! its your data and play behavior, if they do not ask or provide an option to opt out. block it your self.

this is not new people we all "well most" do it to microsoft, we all installed a tool to block or disable the spyware the OS has!

'could not remotely care less who knows what I am doing in 7 days to die or how long I play or when I play