Thirst. And Hunger as well.

[[NTOG] Rave]

Not a gripe about the existence, but why am I hungry at 80/100 food or dying of thirst at 80/100 water?

If water and food are only good for 20 points, why not just have food / water capped at 20/20 if having a large food or water pool mean jack crap if the static point of dying of thirst or starvation is 80?

BTW, no one has ever died of thirst from not drinking their alloted 8 glasses per day DEVs. The Human body takes at least 4 straight days of ZERO fluid intake to BEGIN going into dehydration, and 7 days (ghehe) to start the dying process from dehydration. Starvation starts 15 days after zero caloric intake.

Drop that static point from 80 to 30. Makes more sense and less of a babysitting hassle.

[SuperMeatBag]

1. It's a game, doesn't have to follow any real life rules.
2. Water consumption and thirst varies wildly with activity, ambient temperature and humidity.
3. You can "stack" both hunger and thirst above 100 to allow longer periods of not worrying about it.

[Shurenai]

The static points are at 70% for hungry, 30% for starving; That's of your total value. You can also eat +50 over your 'max' as a buffer zone. Your max hunger/thirst equals 100+<yourlevel>

So if you're level 50, you have a max hunger/thirst of 150, and can eat/drink up to 200- providing a total buffer of somewhere in the ballpark of 95 points. (Hungry being at 105pts)

And yeah- The timeline is condensed. You starve or dehydrate in a day or so of general gameplay- You also aren't saddled with a lot of the other limitations of a human body, like getting exhausted from overwork. You can do a lot, LOT more manual labor in an ingame hour than a real live human could ever hope to achieve in the same time by themselves without heavy machinery; Carry many metric tons of material, and a bunch of other things. -- Plus, Crops grow in 3 days, instead of 3 months; So there's that too.

That said, If you aren't sprinting around everywhere, mining like a digger 45, chopping trees like paul bunyon, building castles out of your back pocket and all of those other high intensity energy consuming tasks, Hunger lasts for around 3-4~ days, give or take, and thirst lasts for one or two. Most activities consume minute amounts of hunger or thirst though- The more active you are, the faster it goes down.

So, I think it's rather fair that the timeline of food/water is condensed so it's a more present thing that you need to take care of regularly. Else lets add all those other realistic things, so you have to take 100x as long to dig a 5x5 room out of sheer stone in return for your hunger taking 4-5 times as long to go down, and realistic crop growth times and other things of that ilk. :)

[Seftak]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

So, I think it's rather fair that the timeline of food/water is condensed so it's a more present thing that you need to take care of regularly. Else lets add all those other realistic things, so you have to take 100x as long to dig a 5x5 room out of sheer stone in return for your hunger taking 4-5 times as long to go down, and realistic crop growth times and other things of that ilk. :)

To be fair, most people would be exhausted for the next 8 hours after swinging a 20 pounds sledghammer or pickaxe for 15 minutes straight....

[HALO_run]

Originally posted by NTOG Eilianna:

Not a gripe about the existence, but why am I hungry at 80/100 food or dying of thirst at 80/100 water?

If water and food are only good for 20 points, why not just have food / water capped at 20/20 if having a large food or water pool mean jack crap if the static point of dying of thirst or starvation is 80?

BTW, no one has ever died of thirst from not drinking their alloted 8 glasses per day DEVs. The Human body takes at least 4 straight days of ZERO fluid intake to BEGIN going into dehydration, and 7 days (ghehe) to start the dying process from dehydration. Starvation starts 15 days after zero caloric intake.

Drop that static point from 80 to 30. Makes more sense and less of a babysitting hassle.

this is a game not real life

[Incunabulum]

Originally posted by NTOG Eilianna:

Not a gripe about the existence, but why am I hungry at 80/100 food or dying of thirst at 80/100 water?

You're not dying of thirst. You're thirsty. Different thing.

Originally posted by NTOG Eilianna:

The Human body takes at least 4 straight days of ZERO fluid intake to BEGIN going into dehydration, and 7 days (ghehe) to start the dying process from dehydration. Starvation starts 15 days after zero caloric intake.

Where I live people can die inside of 48 hours without water. I don't know where you get the idea that you can go 4 days *before dehydration happens*. In most places that will happen after a single day. In 4 days you're in really, really, bad shape. Most people won't make seven days without water.

Also, its an alpha. Alphas are for getting mechanics in and getting them to work. Balancing happens in beta.

[Maddermax]

If you wait 4 days without taking a drink, I hope you’re not going to be doing much for a week after, because your body will be pretty messed up for a looong while. You can’t get to the edge of death, have a drink, and continue on like nothing had happened.

The point is, if you’re doing a regular amount of work, you need regular amounts of food and water to sustain you. To make that easy in gaming terms, you get regular food and water or you die. In real life, you might survive, but you’d be pretty messed up, and have significant ongoing issues until you had a long recovery time - As that would be crap to play through, you just die instead. You could make a mod where you didn’t die till -100 food, and only so much food could be consumed a day if you wanted, to simulate a more “realistic” food curve, where you can get messed up but keep going if you have food issues - I wouldn’t play it, but it’s possible if you want to.

At any rate, food is so plentiful in the game, it’s never an issue unless you set 25% loot, or put personal restrictions on using the trader or vending machines. And once you have 10-15 farm plots, never go hungry again.

[Geck0]

If you think the amount of activity the player does is reasonable but how much they need to drink isn't, I'm not sure what to tell you.
You ever see a construction site where the workers are doing a lot of heavy lifting, those guys drink several litres in a single shift and sweat most of it out.

[Kraft51]

Originally posted by Seftak:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

So, I think it's rather fair that the timeline of food/water is condensed so it's a more present thing that you need to take care of regularly. Else lets add all those other realistic things, so you have to take 100x as long to dig a 5x5 room out of sheer stone in return for your hunger taking 4-5 times as long to go down, and realistic crop growth times and other things of that ilk. :)

To be fair, most people would be exhausted for the next 8 hours after swinging a 20 pounds sledghammer or pickaxe for 15 minutes straight....

then i suggest those people become more active and exercise a little bit. i'm 5'6" and 125 Lbs and used to dig 6' deep holes (pile jacking buildings) all day long for 12 hour days. at one site (4 month project) we were doing 3 weeks on, 2 days off @ 5x12h days, saturday @10h and sunday at 8 ... we did this for 4 months.

8 hours of rest for swinging 20lbs around for 15 minutes, the world would be in a very bad situation if this were the case lol.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

The static points are at 70% for hungry, 30% for starving; That's of your total value. You can also eat +50 over your 'max' as a buffer zone. Your max hunger/thirst equals 100+<yourlevel>

So if you're level 50, you have a max hunger/thirst of 150, and can eat/drink up to 200- providing a total buffer of somewhere in the ballpark of 95 points. (Hungry being at 105pts)

And yeah- The timeline is condensed. You starve or dehydrate in a day or so of general gameplay- You also aren't saddled with a lot of the other limitations of a human body, like getting exhausted from overwork. You can do a lot, LOT more manual labor in an ingame hour than a real live human could ever hope to achieve in the same time by themselves without heavy machinery; Carry many metric tons of material, and a bunch of other things. -- Plus, Crops grow in 3 days, instead of 3 months; So there's that too.

That said, If you aren't sprinting around everywhere, mining like a digger 45, chopping trees like paul bunyon, building castles out of your back pocket and all of those other high intensity energy consuming tasks, Hunger lasts for around 3-4~ days, give or take, and thirst lasts for one or two. Most activities consume minute amounts of hunger or thirst though- The more active you are, the faster it goes down.

So, I think it's rather fair that the timeline of food/water is condensed so it's a more present thing that you need to take care of regularly. Else lets add all those other realistic things, so you have to take 100x as long to dig a 5x5 room out of sheer stone in return for your hunger taking 4-5 times as long to go down, and realistic crop growth times and other things of that ilk. :)

this is helpful underhood info. thank you. i do wish that this was on the hud though. yes, i know you can find it in your character information, but that involves opening menus (and possibly switching tabs), all to find out something that you should know instinctually without any effort or thought at all. am i hungry? yes. how hungry? moderately so. its at least as pertinent as, do i feel tired, or am i dying or alive.

[Shurenai]

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

Originally posted by Shurenai:

The static points are at 70% for hungry, 30% for starving; That's of your total value. You can also eat +50 over your 'max' as a buffer zone. Your max hunger/thirst equals 100+<yourlevel>

So if you're level 50, you have a max hunger/thirst of 150, and can eat/drink up to 200- providing a total buffer of somewhere in the ballpark of 95 points. (Hungry being at 105pts)

And yeah- The timeline is condensed. You starve or dehydrate in a day or so of general gameplay- You also aren't saddled with a lot of the other limitations of a human body, like getting exhausted from overwork. You can do a lot, LOT more manual labor in an ingame hour than a real live human could ever hope to achieve in the same time by themselves without heavy machinery; Carry many metric tons of material, and a bunch of other things. -- Plus, Crops grow in 3 days, instead of 3 months; So there's that too.

That said, If you aren't sprinting around everywhere, mining like a digger 45, chopping trees like paul bunyon, building castles out of your back pocket and all of those other high intensity energy consuming tasks, Hunger lasts for around 3-4~ days, give or take, and thirst lasts for one or two. Most activities consume minute amounts of hunger or thirst though- The more active you are, the faster it goes down.

So, I think it's rather fair that the timeline of food/water is condensed so it's a more present thing that you need to take care of regularly. Else lets add all those other realistic things, so you have to take 100x as long to dig a 5x5 room out of sheer stone in return for your hunger taking 4-5 times as long to go down, and realistic crop growth times and other things of that ilk. :)

this is helpful underhood info. thank you. i do wish that this was on the hud though. yes, i know you can find it in your character information, but that involves opening menus (and possibly switching tabs), all to find out something that you should know instinctually without any effort or thought at all. am i hungry? yes. how hungry? moderately so. its at least as pertinent as, do i feel tired, or am i dying or alive.

Well, thing is.. When you feel hungry, you get the hungry debuff. :) When you feel thirsty, you get the thirsty debuff. You can track your general hunger level by your max stamina- Since the two values are tied. If you're level 50, your max stamina is 150, your max hunger is 150; If you're below 150 hunger, your max stamina drops as well- dropping down to 125/150 hunger will drop your temporary stamina maximum to 125/150 as well- you won't regenerate above that bar. So it's a perfect indicator of when you need to eat.

You might find, if you really pay attention to yourself when you're not quite hungry yet, that there's a fair amount of time between 'Am I hungry?' and when your stomach is strangling your spine saying' Yes, You're hungry'. -- A lot of people tend to eat before getting to that actual 'I'm hungry state' just because it's the rhythm of their day to do so. Heck, A lot of people have trouble telling when they're getting hungry even; Often overeating because they confuse boredom or other similar signals with hunger.

As for dehydration.. Well, Simple fact is that humans are really, REALLY bad at telling when they're dehydrated. We can tell when we're thirsty, yes; But it's hard for us to gauge when we've had enough water, and so often we undercut- We also fail to compensate for high sodium in our diet; Or for caffeine or other elements that lead to increased elimination of liquids from the body. There's at least one study iirc that tested around 3000~ americans and found that around 75% of them were chronically dehydrated without realizing it.

The only indicator we really have for 'do we need more water?' is to feel thirsty- But we basically always feel thirsty, We always want more water. It's rare for a person to not have a drink of some kind within arms reach- But in the absence of a drink, it can take until well into a dehydrated state for us to figure out that we need more water; Assuming we don't confuse the signal with some other need.


TL;DR: Humans can be pretty dumb when it comes to telling how hungry or thirsty they are until it becomes an active stressor to the body (Hungry, Thirsty, Starving, Dehydrated.)-- Except when they sit down and rationally examine their condition (And even then can misconstrue signals and get the wrong result.

So I think having the vague indicators already present are plenty to satisfy that comparison- You can kinda tell how hungry you are at a glance via the stamina meter, but otherwise won't really find out until you get hungry- And you cant tell your water level until you're thirsty.. OR, You stop and really examine yourself to check if you're hungry/thirsty: AKA: Checking your player panel for the exact values.

Pretty good comparison, imo. :D

Edit: also to note, 'Thirst' as a sensation is indicative of as little as 1-2% dehydration from optimum conditions in your body. Reaching that point can take as little as a 15-45 minute workout depending on the level of sweating going on. So, It's actually incredibly generous in 7DTD how little you have to manage your thirst versus the amount of physical effort you go through in the game. :)

Edit 2: Oh, And, I'm not opposed to having a button tied to Temporarily showing how hungry/thirsty you are on screen outside the menu; So you can access that information more comfortably(IE; Without requiring going to the menu). I just don't think putting it on screen 24/7 is necessary as it just adds clutter and doesn't really match the human condition regarding our general awareness of hunger/thirst levels. Even when it comes to getting tired, if we're really engaged with something, we can totally overlook the signs until hours later.

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by Shurenai:

Originally posted by KromeHWI:

this is helpful underhood info. thank you. i do wish that this was on the hud though. yes, i know you can find it in your character information, but that involves opening menus (and possibly switching tabs), all to find out something that you should know instinctually without any effort or thought at all. am i hungry? yes. how hungry? moderately so. its at least as pertinent as, do i feel tired, or am i dying or alive.

Well, thing is.. When you feel hungry, you get the hungry debuff. :) When you feel thirsty, you get the thirsty debuff. You can track your general hunger level by your max stamina- Since the two values are tied. If you're level 50, your max stamina is 150, your max hunger is 150; If you're below 150 hunger, your max stamina drops as well- dropping down to 125/150 hunger will drop your temporary stamina maximum to 125/150 as well- you won't regenerate above that bar. So it's a perfect indicator of when you need to eat.

You might find, if you really pay attention to yourself when you're not quite hungry yet, that there's a fair amount of time between 'Am I hungry?' and when your stomach is strangling your spine saying' Yes, You're hungry'. -- A lot of people tend to eat before getting to that actual 'I'm hungry state' just because it's the rhythm of their day to do so. Heck, A lot of people have trouble telling when they're getting hungry even; Often overeating because they confuse boredom or other similar signals with hunger.

As for dehydration.. Well, Simple fact is that humans are really, REALLY bad at telling when they're dehydrated. We can tell when we're thirsty, yes; But it's hard for us to gauge when we've had enough water, and so often we undercut- We also fail to compensate for high sodium in our diet; Or for caffeine or other elements that lead to increased elimination of liquids from the body. There's at least one study iirc that tested around 3000~ americans and found that around 75% of them were chronically dehydrated without realizing it.

The only indicator we really have for 'do we need more water?' is to feel thirsty- But we basically always feel thirsty, We always want more water. It's rare for a person to not have a drink of some kind within arms reach- But in the absence of a drink, it can take until well into a dehydrated state for us to figure out that we need more water; Assuming we don't confuse the signal with some other need.


TL;DR: Humans can be pretty dumb when it comes to telling how hungry or thirsty they are until it becomes an active stressor to the body (Hungry, Thirsty, Starving, Dehydrated.)-- Except when they sit down and rationally examine their condition (And even then can misconstrue signals and get the wrong result.

So I think having the vague indicators already present are plenty to satisfy that comparison- You can kinda tell how hungry you are at a glance via the stamina meter, but otherwise won't really find out until you get hungry- And you cant tell your water level until you're thirsty.. OR, You stop and really examine yourself to check if you're hungry/thirsty: AKA: Checking your player panel for the exact values.

Pretty good comparison, imo. :D

ok, you make a good point here, especially about how bad people are at telling if they are getting dehydrated, and how we kind of always feel thirsty. so, well put, and i can buy that argument.

i guess, its just with video games we expect to see health bars for all the stats that really matter in the game. maybe this isnt really realistic, but so be it, we still expect it. and the reason i heard as to why they removed them from that game was not for realism, but because they thought it made the hud "too cluttered." i dont agree with this reasoning. it would be very simple to add two more small bars (or some other visual indicators) without the hud being overly cluttered. the hud is actually quite sparse in comparison to that of many other games.

if they are going for vague, they should make it ALL vague. or all clear and mathematically precise. "i know that i have taken exactly 23% of the damage i can take before i die," is just as unrealistic as "i know exactly how hungry i am, and i know exactly how much sustenance this random food will give me at a glance."

[KromeHWI]

re shuranai edits: a key to temporarily show this information would be a good compromise

[ViperV]

Originally posted by NTOG Eilianna:

BTW, no one has ever died of thirst from not drinking their alloted 8 glasses per day DEVs. The Human body takes at least 4 straight days of ZERO fluid intake to BEGIN going into dehydration, and 7 days (ghehe) to start the dying process from dehydration. Starvation starts 15 days after zero caloric intake.

Never occurred to you that your character never sleeps?

[KromeHWI]

Originally posted by ViperV:

Originally posted by NTOG Eilianna:

BTW, no one has ever died of thirst from not drinking their alloted 8 glasses per day DEVs. The Human body takes at least 4 straight days of ZERO fluid intake to BEGIN going into dehydration, and 7 days (ghehe) to start the dying process from dehydration. Starvation starts 15 days after zero caloric intake.

Never occurred to you that your character never sleeps?

that's a whole different issue... and probably best not to get into here (there are plenty of other threads that talk about it). but yes, as another "not remotely realistic" aspect, not sleeping is also a thing. just like when you put a 4x4 truck in your pocket, or load it into the basket on your bike while traveling (not saying you would but you could)...

[Mechanical]

Once I could make hobo stew and Y.Juice I just over ate and over drank, and the moment I saw those numbers dip under inflated/extra-max in the hud (not the character sheet) I'd repeat that. Looting stuff, when my inventory gets full and I have to fiddle with loot priority, I just inhales all the water and drink I find. Early game I was annoyed by how small the gap between normal max and thirst when thirst debuff kicked in, but I figured this is still in alpha and I'm supposed to be clawing in the mud and suffering until I've abused skill levels.