Unlimited World Size

[Nimbull]

I really miss those kinds of maps. It was nice exploring on and on forever back in the earlier random gen alphas. I hope some days those make a comeback. I think that would make this current map generation in A17 more enjoyable. The world seems tiny even at a 8k map size compared to A16.

[Green777]

new system used, no thought about players 8k map is the one they sat is stable to get decent size maps, if you rent a server it now costs more to have bigger maps, Also you need more ram to generate bigger maps I have ajgood 12k map for 30 players, until the fp optimise/ change rwg your stuck with crap maps

[Trooper Bri]

With the new road system in A17 looking more like a roller coaster at Six Flags, or something created by people with adult ADD, I'm not sure an unlimited map is a good idea. I'd be happy with cohesive towns and cities like A16 had for now. Then make it bigger.

[baddoggs]

Originally posted by Trooper Bri:

With the new road system in A17 looking more like a roller coaster at Six Flags, or something created by people with adult ADD, I'm not sure an unlimited map is a good idea. I'd be happy with cohesive towns and cities like A16 had for now. Then make it bigger.

+1

[Nakey]

wait does this mean all new games have limited map sizes?

[Nimbull]

Originally posted by Nakey:

wait does this mean all new games have limited map sizes?

This game started out with unlimited sized random terrain generation like Mincraft has along with a prefab map. Random gen got restricted because the devs can't figure out bugs that happen as you get farther from the center of the game world. It's been progressively getting smaller and smaller with each new alpha.

[FilthyRatGoblin]

Originally posted by Nimbull:

Originally posted by Nakey:

wait does this mean all new games have limited map sizes?

This game started out with unlimited sized random terrain generation like Mincraft has along with a prefab map. Random gen got restricted because the devs can't figure out bugs that happen as you get farther from the center of the game world. It's been progressively getting smaller and smaller with each new alpha.

In other words nobody in this type of game has figured out how to make infinite maps not broken.

[SylenThunder]

Maps aren't cheap. In a16 the default 10k/314 square kilometer map would easily be 12GB or larger in size.

Now, imagine the old 30k/2827 square kilometer map. Those were easily 30-40GB.

This isn't Minecraft where a 314 square kilometer map would only use 3-400MB's.

For rented servers, storage space isn't cheap.

Besides, how long would it take you to explore all of that in single-player?

[Avanar]

It would be possible if chunks get generated on the fly when you enter it. But since 7d2d is generating them when starting it the first time, its not possible with unlimited maps.

But yes, that would me great. Along with a better building system and a late game material that can't be broken by zombies. High costs as well, so building a full base with it is not possible. Maybe a panic room, not more

[KellyR]

The problem wasn't about storage size, it was about the coordinates getting too large to fit into the data types without loss of precision, thus causing major problems with things like item placement and cursor jitter, IIRC.

[baddoggs]

Originally posted by SylenThunder:

Maps aren't cheap. In a16 the default 10k/314 square kilometer map would easily be 12GB or larger in size.

Now, imagine the old 30k/2827 square kilometer map. Those were easily 30-40GB.

This isn't Minecraft where a 314 square kilometer map would only use 3-400MB's.

For rented servers, storage space isn't cheap.

Besides, how long would it take you to explore all of that in single-player?

As a server owner/operator i understand completely. The large maps create all kinds
of issues not just limited to storage. Add to that 40 or more players that want to build
unlimited blocks on top of that and usually want a thousand light sorces EG torches..
It can be a nightmare. We ran a "space Engineers" server and had to re set every 7
days or so or spend a whole day (realtime) cleaning up the abandoned junk created
for no real good reason. 7DtD is great in that regard and we have not had to do any
cleanups or impose block limits in the 3 weeks we have run our server.
The players themselves either don't understand or just don't care so i expect some
tears....

[dszombiex]

Originally posted by Nimbull:

I hope some days those make a comeback.

Since we moved to entirely pregenerated maps, infinite maps would mean infinite generation time and infinite size on disk. Those days will never come back unless they move back to a generate as you travel model.

Originally posted by Nimbull:

Originally posted by Nakey:

wait does this mean all new games have limited map sizes?

This game started out with unlimited sized random terrain generation like Mincraft has along with a prefab map. Random gen got restricted because the devs can't figure out bugs that happen as you get farther from the center of the game world. It's been progressively getting smaller and smaller with each new alpha.

This is not what happened. They fixed the precision loss due to distance from world origin by using a dynamic world origin. What changed is they moved from a generate the world as you move model to an entirely pregenerated world model. The reason for this change was due to terrain generation as you move not being fast enough to keep up with vehicles. Sometimes you could move faster than new chunks could be generated and would fall through the world before it generated. The world now generates completely before you play and loading chunks is much faster since you don't have to generate them on the fly as the player moves, they're just loaded from disk.

[Nein MC]

Originally posted by Avanar:

It would be possible if chunks get generated on the fly when you enter it. But since 7d2d is generating them when starting it the first time, its not possible with unlimited maps.

That only helps as long as people don't actually explore it all. Everyhing that is explored (and potentially changed) has to be written to and loaded from disk. That is also true for Minecraft, where I doubt you'll find many free, public, well visited servers without any map limits imposed in any way. They might be 20k instead of 8k,etc. but infinite without any fine print isn't a thing in practice (outside server admins who are unaware finding out the hard way why map limits exist).

edit: Oh, and as for generating it all at once, I guess that's for the whole view distance thing they introduced recently. Personally, I would love to have a rather short view distance, if I wouldn't have any popping up of things I built within that distance, but I doubt many people would like that.... right? Generating it chunk by chunk, or being able to see far out of the box, pick one.

Personally, I don't really like being able to see far -- knowing that it's actually just a pre-baked, low-detail version of "reality" that might even be true anymore. I would be interested to see what more "claustrophobic, Silent Hill" kind of graphics would be like. Of course, if it was possible to "slowly, on the side" update those LOD things to actually match reality, that would also be cool.

[Nein MC]

Originally posted by dszombiex:

Sometimes you could move faster than new chunks could be generated and would fall through the world before it generated. The world now generates completely before you play and loading chunks is much faster since you don't have to generate them on the fly as the player moves, they're just loaded from disk.

So now when something locks up the HD at the wrong moment, you could still fall through the world?

Did they actually state that was the reason? Because in my mind, when something breaks because it *assumes* data to be where there can sometimes be no data, you fix it by not breaking when there is no data, not by "making double sure there's always data".

Here's some thoughts: If applying the current speed to a player changes the position to be in a chunk that isn't loaded, don't apply the speed to the player position this tick. If a vehicle is inside blocks, put it on top of them, before you "kill" an entity maybe look at what it actually is first. I know that's simplifying it a but.. but generating the world at once as a "bug fix", now that would be just overcomplicating it, fixing nothing, and creating more problems.

[dszombiex]

Originally posted by Howard Carpendale:

...Did they actually state that was the reason?...

We had a pretty big discussion about it in various threads here and on the official forums while A17 was being worked on but details were being released. It was definitely due to the speed of terrain generation. They didn't like how it performed when chunks were generated on the fly.

[Nein MC]

From the A17 changelog:

> Random gen has gotten some love and been sped up with these new features:

> Common file formatting with Navezgane which allows distant trees, pre-generated height for much better performance.

That's about performance, but still very different from "so that players don't fall through the world".