Gun Smithing feels kind've useless.

[Tikchi the Ratman]

So, let me explain where I'm coming from here. I play on a server with a couple friends, and I'm the group's designated crafter person. I make all the stuff and have all the crafting skills. And all of them have proven to be very useful... except gun crafting. So I sat down and examined the skill in more detail, and boy was I surprised.

Gun Smithing seems to do a whole lot less than the other crafting skills for a couple reasons:

- The main bonus to gaining a crafting skill, the increase in quality, only applies to one item (the Blunderbuss) that is, itself, pretty niche.(Shotgun specialists without a real shotgun).
- The secondary bonus, combining similar items to make better ones, is extremely difficult with guns due to the random nature of parts received and the extremely small bonus gained from it (Seems to be capped at 10% of the lower-quality item).
- Gun parts don't lose quality when a gun is repaired (only when the part is repaired separately, and who does that?) so the bonus to repair is meaningless. This is probably a bug.
- Gun parts cannot be improved via recipe, unlike the Auger and Chainsaw.

All of these things combine to mean that Gun Smithing, as it stands now, is a niche skill limited almost entirely to those who want to make expansive use of blunderbusses since it's just not needed for anything else. In the multiplayer setting I'm much better off with 3 quality 500 parts than the single quality 600 part I could make out of them, if we're even lucky enough to find three identical high-quality parts to combine, because three people with good guns is better than one person with a better gun. And there are some parts we haven't even found yet 35 days in. Most of our good guns come from the people with Quality Joe scrounging up parts far higher than anything I could make by combining even a dozen lower-quality parts. And while I've made incredible use of Tool, Weapon, and Armor crafting, Science, and even Misc Crafting, Gun Smithing has felt like a waste of points. And that's a shame.

[LokitheWeaver]

Originally posted by Paladin:

Firearms do not lose quality when they're repaired, so you do not consume parts in fixing them.

And if your base is a net loss of resources on horde nights, you've built it wrong. I'm sorry, but you have.

I am guessing you refer to using a repair kit, with perks, to keep the weapon at the original quality level when repaired? That is / may be true with current game build (as one poster noted the loss is spread over the parts and may end up being zero, as an oversight) but I don't think that has always been the case. I do recall at some point (A14? A15?) it became a better option to repair using gun parts vs. repair kits - at least in my games. So I got in that habit.

Not certain how you reach the second conclusion. No zombie I know of has loot drops of concrete mix, forged iron, forged steel, etc. Rarely they will drop a piece of wood, or two. Enough to craft a single wood frame, with no upgrades.

Yet those same zombies can destroy a concrete block in a few swings, wipe out trap upgrades or traps themselves with little effort. Now I am not a master of the game, but the "best" horde base design (in reduced chance of zombie damage during horde nights) I know of is the simple elevated platform (which works well until you get to cops). In the best case scenario, you invest no resources in traps, etc. and just allow the original 8 zombies to mill about underneath your platform until the blood moon is over.

It is a real "cheese" of the AI, but even then you need to kill the original 8 zombies. Even then I cannot imagine that the loot from those 8 zombies would equal the value of ammo required to kill them. I guess one could climb down and melee them - but that would allow them to target you / the ladder and one column on your base (which means while you are climbing down they will destroy one or more base blocks . . .

I do know that there are other base plans which also take advantage of game / AI issues (floating bases, bedrock bases, etc.) Heck, if that is the way you want to play, just use the console commands to allow you to hang out at the local Trader Joel's. So I guess, technically, you are right - I could build my bases better : )

[KellyR]

I use a cage base and kill pretty much everything with melee. Repairing melee weapons is absurdly cheap. And iron and stone are basically free resources, if you mine like I do. I've modded the stack size to 12k for stone, and 6k for raw iron, and I still have multiple chests overflowing with both.

So concrete is just not an issue, ever.

I have 3 forges *just* for cranking out cement, and 3 cement mixers. And that's playing on a server with just me and one other person, and the other person has very limited free time to play. So it's almost a solo operation.

Repairing/replacing concrete and steel blocks is just too trivial to worry about. And I only burn ammo to kill irradiated cops quickly. Everything else I just machete to death.

The cage bunker also has blade traps, and spikes helping me out.

It's not even the most efficient design, really, I just built it to have a bunker quickly, it was ready before the day 7 horde hit (Though it didn't get upgraded to concrete until the day 14 horde).

A stilt platform base can be made in a way that allows you to melee the zombies under you, not just as a gun/bow platform btw. That would be even more efficient. Repairing or replacing a single machete or whatever would be like a single in-game hour's work in my mines. That's nothing. Even if I was supplying for like a 20 person team, I'd have mined the resources for that *on my own* in like a single game day.

As for repairing firearms... You don't even need any perks. If you find a 600 quality firearm on day 1, you can repair it with repair kits with no skills whatsoever, and it will never lose quality. If you're using parts to repair guns in the current alpha, you should really stop. You're absolutely pure and simple wasting the parts.

That goes for every item in the game that's assembled from parts that way. Guns, augers, chainsaws, minibikes, everything. Use repair kits to repair the fully assembled item, never repair components.

[YamaKami]

If you or anyone feels a skill or perk is not useful, purchase other ones then. You cannot get all perks (unless you grind the missions found on the sticky notes after you are) at max level.

[Nobody]

other thread (about ability to craft guns) but relevant here too

Originally posted by Nobody:

dont like the idea, instead i say, remove ability to make 7.62 ammo and slugs.
but
Add Western Revolver and Rifle with a own Bullet type, all Producable.

We need to reduce the amount of endgame weapons and ammo.
But to make that sensefull we need a armour value for Zombies.
(7.62 = good armor Piercing)

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Nobody:

other thread (about ability to craft guns) but relevant here too

Originally posted by Nobody:

dont like the idea, instead i say, remove ability to make 7.62 ammo and slugs.
but
Add Western Revolver and Rifle with a own Bullet type, all Producable.

We need to reduce the amount of endgame weapons and ammo.
But to make that sensefull we need a armour value for Zombies.
(7.62 = good armor Piercing)

7.62 nato is a standarad round, and just makes sense. As adding more ammo variation only soaks up the limited mat space for a 100% redundant item. It adds nothing of value to the game. Also we already have a magnum revolver, as well as a rifle outside of that.

[Sangra69]

I remember when gunsmithing was useful when we had molds for the forge. They though that it made the game way too easy.

[Nobody]

By making 7.62 ammo and weapons more rare but adding a less Powerfull alternative you can completly build by yourself (weapon and ammo).
It would be possible to have a balanced buildable weapon.

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Nobody:

By making 7.62 ammo and weapons more rare but adding a less Powerfull alternative you can completly build by yourself (weapon and ammo).
It would be possible to have a balanced buildable weapon.

What part of LIMITED MAT SPACE is difficult to understand for you?? Using that round eliminates the need for more rounds that serve identical purpose. Thus freeing up more space for other things, things that would add something to the game besides redundancy. Which TFP has taken great steps to reduce, if not eliminate for some time now. Starting from the removal of the crafting grid and consolidation update.

[LokitheWeaver]

Originally posted by YamaKami:

Originally posted by Nobody:

By making 7.62 ammo and weapons more rare but adding a less Powerfull alternative you can completly build by yourself (weapon and ammo).
It would be possible to have a balanced buildable weapon.

What part of LIMITED MAT SPACE is difficult to understand for you?? Using that round eliminates the need for more rounds that serve identical purpose. Thus freeing up more space for other things, things that would add something to the game besides redundancy. Which TFP has taken great steps to reduce, if not eliminate for some time now. Starting from the removal of the crafting grid and consolidation update.

As YamaKami points out, each "item" not only takes up space in your inventory (while there are not a lot of "nomadic" survivor players left, anymore, there are still a few of us) it also hits a hard limit of the game engine (as used by Pimps). "Modders" constantly face this limitation when they try to add neat new toys to the game.

What he is too nice to say is that:
1) there is already the weapon of which you dream. It is called the "blunderbuss" - craft with basic materials, no recipe required, ammo does not need forge / workbench. Enjoy.

2) Usually when a player asks for some specific weapon "just for variety" what they really want is something that is more powerful, in some way, than what is in the game. If it is not more powerful, no one will use it (see blunderbuss, above). "Playstyle" is a smokescreen - you already have access to 3 variations of "spread" weapons (blunderbuss, sawed off and pump shotguns); 2 semi / auto weapons (SMG and AK-47); 2 handguns (9mm and 44 mag revolver); 2 rifles (hunting and sniper.)

The only thing I can see that is missing is a laser / phaser. <LOL>

[Nobody]

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

As YamaKami points out

Sorry try to ignore this toxic guy

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

"Modders" constantly face this limitation when they try to add neat new toys to the game.

i know, modder by myself

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

there is already the weapon of which you dream. It is called the "blunderbuss" - craft with basic materials, no recipe required, ammo does not need forge / workbench. Enjoy.

YOu would use the Blunderbuss as substitute for sniper and AK ?

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

Usually when a player asks for some specific weapon "just for variety" what they really want is something that is more powerful...

My suggestion is based on strengthen the midgame and Crafting aspect but at the same time making the endgame warweaponry rare enough to spare it if not need it. And there is a huge gap between Hunting rifle and AK/Sniper.

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Nobody:

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

As YamaKami points out

Sorry try to ignore this toxic guy

You know how I know I have met smarter lab mice than you? Rehtorical question, carry on with the ignoring.

[LokitheWeaver]

Originally posted by Nobody:

Originally posted by LokitheWeaver:

As YamaKami points out

Sorry try to ignore this toxic guy *snip*

Ah, bad plan. YamaKami has been around here as long (if not longer) than I have. We have butted heads, many times, over the last three years. But when he makes a point, there is always a good reason for his position. So while we may not agree, I always listen to what he has to say.

Unfortunately over the last few years this forum / community has suffered some significant "changes".

YamaKami is not "toxic" - if anything he is an optimist, who has always been supportive of the game and the developers. Which means he suffers a lot of anger targeted at a "fan boy".

The fact that he is still an active member of this forum, in spite of this, demonstrates a lot of character and is one the reasons I suggest the exact opposite. Don't ignore him - listen to what he has to say. You may not agree (I often don't) but in trying to understand why he says something I am forced to review my own position.

[LokitheWeaver]

Originally posted by Nobody:

*snip*
YOu would use the Blunderbuss as substitute for sniper and AK ?
*snip*
My suggestion is based on strengthen the midgame and Crafting aspect but at the same time making the endgame warweaponry rare enough to spare it if not need it. And there is a huge gap between Hunting rifle and AK/Sniper.

No, actually I think the blunderbuss is a fairly worthless piece of junk (at least for my play style.) But I know there are a lot of players who have figured out how to make it a valuable firearm option (when they have lots of gunpowder / resources, but have not found all the pieces for a "real" gun, etc.) So the point was that a firearm a player could craft, is not actually used very much - because it is *NOT* a better option. It is a scaled down shotgun - when we already have two versions of those weapons.

But your point (rare end game weapons) is valid - in my games I often do just that: use the "disposable" hunting rifle for every day and save the sniper for horde nights (or other special occasions.) However, the way RNG rules this game, I often have a fully working sniper rifle before I ever find all the pieces to assemble a hunting rifle.

I don't think the difference between the hunting rifle / sniper rifle is any different than that between the bow / crossbow; 9 mm pistol / magnum; or even the sawed off normal load and the pump with slugs. My personal belief is that a lot of options makes sense, if (and only if) you can actually find a working weapon most of the time. The "weapon parts" mechanic is silly and an arbitrary way to stretch out an aspect of the game that could have been handled in much more logical manner (for instance the way Valmar does in his mods - a basic hunting rifle can be upgraded with extended magazine or a scope: having a hunting rifle is fairly easy but finding that rare upgrade becomes a nice progression and eliminates the need for a sniper rifle, even though it is still there.)

It would not be difficult to fill the need you describe (mid-game and crafting) by those same mechanics (as is done by several mods). Have a base shotgun, common loot drop, but with greater gunsmithing you can modify it (simply cut down the stock / barrel, for instance at low level, modify the barrel with a choke at higher levels). But each modification should have some specific "benefit" vs. the arbitrary system now in place. For instance, sawed off could have a wider spread (as it does, sort of) but it would do full damage to several targets at short range (vs. the standing right next to me, hitting me in the face of the current weapon)

At mid-game, with more numerous hordes, this would be worth doing. However, later you really need to do a lot more damage to single targets (who are becoming bullet sponges.) So a higher level of gunsmithing would allow you to decrease the spread and maximize the damage to a single target (a precursor to the slug).

No need to add more weapons. In fact it reduces the weapon drop items to a single "shotgun". Throw out the "parts to build" and replace it with a real gunsmithing skill of parts modification, which provides a real game bonus.

Nah. Never going to happen. Much better if we force the players to worship the RNG gods instead of develop a character who can make intelligent choices that impact game play.