Workbench is ridiculously OP

[Ghostlight]

I have been playing this game for a few weeks now and really enjoying it. However I have to report that I feel the Workbench is very over-powered; specifically its ability to combine two identical items. Just in case anyone doesn't know or hasn't discovered yet, here's a summary of how Workbench item combination works:

If you add 2 identical items to a Workbench, it will instantly combine them into a new version of that item which is approximately 20 quality better than the highest quality of the two starting items. If either or both items has less than max durability at the time, then the final result item will be of slightly lesser quality, but it will always be fully repaired. Examples (actual numbers may not be 100% accurate but they are close):

100% durability Quality 300 Stone Axe + 100% durability Quality 300 Stone Axe = 100% durability Quality 320 Stone Axe

100% durability Quality 300 Stone Axe + 50% durability Quality 300 Stone Axe = 100% durability Quality 310 Stone Axe


This has 2 important implications:

1) When you can produce a few copies of a given item it is very easy to cheese out a level 600 (which is the max level) version of that item. E.g. if your skill is high enough that you can produce a level 400 Stone Axe, then you can simply produce about 20 of them, then combine them in a Workbench and you have a level 600 Stone Axe!! This makes raising your production skills/perks redundant, since it is far easier to cheese out a 600 item through combination at a Workbench than it is to raise your skills high enough that you can actually make a 600 yourself.

2) Even worse than the above: the moment you get a hold of a quality 600 of any item, you never have to repair it or worry about it losing quality ever again - you will have a 600 item forever. If it loses durability through use, simply make another item of the same type, REGARDLESS OF QUALITY, and combine it with your worn out 600 item, and your 600 is instantly repaired and remains 600.

To my mind, this is game-breakingly broken. Especially since the item combination costs no resources and takes zero time. As a result of this, in my current game, myself and 2 friends - all of us noobs who had never played the game before - have a quality 600 of every single tool, armour and weapon in the game (except the Sniper Rifle as we can't find parts for it) and this is by day 30. Our game is essentially done....we cannot get any better items by any means; we cannot progress any further item-wise and all production skills are essentially redundant now.

Surely broken?

[YamaKami]

So after you have leveled your skill to the point you can produce high level items you can combine, you should not be able to get 600 quality items...

And it does not cost resources....

Do you listen to yourself when you speak??

Seems to me the issue is just one of balance in that we get too much xp too easily though some would say the opposite of that, so I guess "In B4 an xp amount option is requested". lol

[Bromulus]

I can't even find enough mechanical parts to make a workbench, lol, so I will check to the power on this topic.

I was only taken aback by one little comment:

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

Our game is essentially done....

I've found there to be just a wee more things holding my interest in this game than wielding 600 tools. Personally.

[Ghostlight]

Eh? Not sure YamaKami understood what I said.

My current toolmaking skill allows me to craft level 400 Steel Axes.

I craft 20 of them, then combine in a workbench, and I now have a level 600 Steel Axe.

I will never have less than 600 Axe now because when it wears down, I simply combine with another 400 Steel Axe and I have a fully repaired 600 Steel Axe again.

It is nothing to do with exp, I could make the level 600 Axe even if my skill was much lower, it would simply take more low level Axes to do it.

[Ghostlight]

Originally posted by Bromulus:

I can't even find enough mechanical parts to make a workbench, lol, so I will check to the power on this topic.

Strip down all cars you find with a Wrench till they disappear. Same thing with air conditioning units on roofs. 20 Mechanical parts in mere minutes.

I was only taken aback by one little comment:

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

Our game is essentially done....

I've found there to be just a wee more things holding my interest in this game than wielding 600 tools. Personally.

I get what you are saying, but have you done it? Have everything you could possibly make at level 600 and see if you feel like continuing the map.....you are essentially ridiculously OP. I need the fear of actually dying when I play games like this.

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by YamaKami:

So after you have leveled your skill to the point you can produce high level items you can combine, you should not be able to get 600 quality items...

And it does not cost resources....

Do you listen to yourself when you speak??

Seems to me the issue is just one of balance in that we get too much xp too easily though some would say the opposite of that, so I guess "In B4 an xp amount option is requested". lol

Yama, I have to agree with OP on this one. IMHO there's something which needs to be seriouly rebalanced in the current workbench combine mechanics.

Also I don't agree with TFP on the logic of it... if in real life you get too crappy working tools and try to make a new one with parts from both you don't normally end up with a better version, just with maybe a working (in the sense of "repaired") version of that tool.

I know it's, as always, a simplification for the sake of gameplay, but in this case it feels OP.

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

Eh? Not sure you understood what I said.

My current toolmaking skill allows me to craft level 400 Steel Axes.

I craft 20 of them, then combine in a workbench, and I now have a level 600 Steel Axe.

I will never have less than 600 Axe now because when it wears down, I simply combine with another 400 Steel Axe and I have a fully repaired 600 Steel Axe again.

It is nothing to do with exp, I could make the level 600 Axe even if my skill was much lower, it would simply take more low level Axes to do it.

Not sure you understand what you said. Crafting 20 axes certainly does take resources for one thing. Your complaint boils down to by day 30 you are set up and the game is too easy. This is not the singular fault of a the workbench. More over you are getting to much xp too fast allowing for you to make high level things you can combine to make higher level things. That works as intended. For it's 1st pass too it is not too out of balance. Less xp awarded, and then if still needed they can dial back the potency of the workbench.

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Jost Amman:

Originally posted by YamaKami:

So after you have leveled your skill to the point you can produce high level items you can combine, you should not be able to get 600 quality items...

And it does not cost resources....

Do you listen to yourself when you speak??

Seems to me the issue is just one of balance in that we get too much xp too easily though some would say the opposite of that, so I guess "In B4 an xp amount option is requested". lol

Yama, I have to agree with OP on this one. IMHO there's something which needs to be seriouly rebalanced in the current workbench combine mechanics.

Also I don't agree with TFP on the logic of it... if in real life you get too crappy working tools and try to make a new one with parts from both you don't normally end up with a better version, just with maybe a working (in the sense of "repaired") version of that tool.

I know it's, as always, a simplification for the sake of gameplay, but in this case it feels OP.

IRL if you take two things and part out one to improve the other it would often times be better so the logic is fine. The larger issues is still how fast we gain xp, which I feel is done intentionally at present for testing purposes. Much in the same way that the terrain in RWG has a ton more mountains than they intend to have as they are testing things out. "Alpha is as Alpha does" (quote to be read with Forest Gumps voice lol)

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Bromulus:

I can't even find enough mechanical parts to make a workbench, lol, so I will check to the power on this topic.

If you have a wrench you can steal a bench. Also in addition to what Ghostlight mentioned, with a wrench office chairs are a solid source of Mech Parts.

[Ghostlight]

Originally posted by YamaKami:

Not sure you understand what you said. Crafting 20 axes certainly does take resources for one thing

Fairly irrelevant cost in terms of tools etc, and NO COST at all for guns since you just combine the parts you find to maintain one or two "uber guns". And you only need to do all this ONCE per player per item. Once you have the level 600, you need only make another item now and again for repairing and you stay with the 600 forever with little cost.

Your complaint boils down to by day 30 you are set up and the game is too easy

Not exactly. My complaint is that when my skill allows me to produce a level 400 tool, I should not be able to in fact produce a level 600 of that tool so very easily.

This is not the singular fault of a the workbench.

Yes it is. If it were not for the Workbench I would be running around with level 300 or 400 of everything as that is generally what my skills allow me to make. However I have 600 in everything, precisely because of the Workbench.

More over you are getting to much xp too fast allowing for you to make high level things you can combine to make higher level things. That works as intended. For it's 1st pass too it is not too out of balance. Less xp awarded, and then if still needed they can dial back the potency of the workbench.

Exp I am getting doesn't matter. I could do the same trick whether my starting point was a level 400 Axe or a level 20 Axe. Same result -> level 600 Axe. In fact if I found a Workbench on day #1, I am pretty sure I could have a level 600 Bow and full set of level 600 stone tools by the end of day #1. That is ridiculous

[...👑 JOST AMMAN 👑...]

Originally posted by YamaKami:

Originally posted by Jost Amman:

Yama, I have to agree with OP on this one. IMHO there's something which needs to be seriouly rebalanced in the current workbench combine mechanics.

Also I don't agree with TFP on the logic of it... if in real life you get too crappy working tools and try to make a new one with parts from both you don't normally end up with a better version, just with maybe a working (in the sense of "repaired") version of that tool.

I know it's, as always, a simplification for the sake of gameplay, but in this case it feels OP.

IRL if you take two things and part out one to improve the other it would often times be better so the logic is fine. The larger issues is still how fast we gain xp, which I feel is done intentionally at present for testing purposes. Much in the same way that the terrain in RWG has a ton more mountains than they intend to have as they are testing things out. "Alpha is as Alpha does" (quote to be read with Forest Gumps voice lol)

Now that I think about it in real life it could be very difficult but the end result could be better.
Problem is when you translate all this inside the game something feels awfully unbalanced... :-/

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

Originally posted by YamaKami:

Not sure you understand what you said. Crafting 20 axes certainly does take resources for one thing

Fairly irrelevant cost in terms of tools etc, and NO COST at all for gun since you just combine the parts you find to maintain one or two "uber guns". And you only need to do all this ONCE per player per item. Once you have the level 600, you need only make another item now and again for repairing and you stay with the 600 forever with little cost.

Your complaint boils down to by day 30 you are set up and the game is too easy

Not exactly. My complaint is that when my skill allows me to produce a level 400 tool, I should not be able to in fact prpduce a level 600 of that tool so very easily.

This is not the singular fault of a the workbench.

Yes it is. If it were not for the Workbench I would be running arounf with level 300 or 400 of everything as that is generally what my skills allow me to make. However I have 600 in everything, precisely because of the Workbench.

More over you are getting to much xp too fast allowing for you to make high level things you can combine to make higher level things. That works as intended. For it's 1st pass too it is not too out of balance. Less xp awarded, and then if still needed they can dial back the potency of the workbench.

Exp I am getting doesn't matter. I could do the same trick whether my starting point was a level 400 Axe or a level 20 Axe. Same result -> level 600 Axe.

There is cost you stated otherwise previously. As for gun parts they are subject to RNG so very moot point. 20 X level 400 to make 600 is not that easy and requires many steps and materials. Could it be more difficult, yes. Again this is made even easier by the fact we get too much XP to quickly/easily in the game. If you try do the same trick with level 20 axes it's going to take a shed load more axes than 20. I would not recommend that arduous task, personally I would sooner use the level 20 and work on gitt'n gud.

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Jost Amman:

Originally posted by YamaKami:

IRL if you take two things and part out one to improve the other it would often times be better so the logic is fine. The larger issues is still how fast we gain xp, which I feel is done intentionally at present for testing purposes. Much in the same way that the terrain in RWG has a ton more mountains than they intend to have as they are testing things out. "Alpha is as Alpha does" (quote to be read with Forest Gumps voice lol)

Now that I think about it in real life it could be very difficult but the end result could be better.
Problem is when you translate all this inside the game something feels awfully unbalanced... :-/

There are several balance issues all paying off one another in this particular grievance I fell. Beta stuffs though.

[Ghostlight]

You dont think a level 600 Bow and full set of stone tools level 600 on day 1 is OP?

[YamaKami]

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

You dont think a level 600 Bow and full set of stone tools level 600 on day 1 is OP?

No it is. You should not have a workbench yet on day one though either. Many minor balance issues all play into this. As I said this is not the singular issue of the workbench alone.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

You dont think a level 600 Bow and full set of stone tools level 600 on day 1 is OP?

Not really, the difference between a 100 quality bow and 600 quality bow is about 5-10 damage. Same with the stone tools. There is such a low spread on them for a reason. Anything more then stone will take a trenendous amount of resources to hit that point.

Every time you repair your pickaxe with the workbench you spend far more metal then if you just repaired it normally so there is a trade off. The formula could be adjusted so that if the quality difference between the two items is too low that it has a minimal effect though.