Do markets need to border storage barns?

[Jet]

I know I need to have houses inside the area of influence of my markets but do storage barns need to be inside of it too? Or do they work better outside of the influence?

My setup is: Barns to the west, just south of that are the harbor homes, and to the far east is where im planning on adding the market. Not sure if itll be of help since my homes will be right in the middle of the marketplace and barns. Whats happening now is they take food to barn and immediately pick up and send it home, inefficient

[mbutton15]

OK, so going back to a statement in your OP, "Whats happening now is they take food to barn and immediately pick up and send it home, inefficient". That isn't inefficient, it is just how the game is designed to work. No food (or other resource for that matter) will go straight from source to house (building site/work place). Everything has to go to a storage place (barn, stockpile, market) before it can find it's way to a house/building site/work place.

You are correct in your observation on houses inside/outdise of market perimeter. A house within the perimeter will gather small quantities of a large variety of food. Whilst a house outside the perimeter will gather large quantites of a small variety of food and exhibit the hoarding characteristic.

[Jet]

Originally posted by mbutton15:

OK, so going back to a statement in your OP, "Whats happening now is they take food to barn and immediately pick up and send it home, inefficient". That isn't inefficient, it is just how the game is designed to work. No food (or other resource for that matter) will go straight from source to house (building site/work place). Everything has to go to a storage place (barn, stockpile, market) before it can find it's way to a house/building site/work place.

You are correct in your observation on houses inside/outdise of market perimeter. A house within the perimeter will gather small quantities of a large variety of food. Whilst a house outside the perimeter will gather large quantites of a small variety of food and exhibit the hoarding characteristic.

Good good then. Getting a small market close to my work homes is gonna need to be part of my tasks then

[mbutton15]

You conclusion is also correct. - Put another way, a basic rule is more time spent walking, less time spent working. So really you will probabnly end up with a large central community to begin with. Then as you expand, you will have smaller communites that are as self-sufficient as you can make them.

[Jet]

Originally posted by mbutton15:

You conclusion is also correct. - Put another way, a basic rule is more time spent walking, less time spent working. So really you will probabnly end up with a large central community to begin with. Then as you expand, you will have smaller communites that are as self-sufficient as you can make them.

what about the last question? Im still unsure of this

If the market doesnt touch the barn you guys have said its fine, itll still pick up items from the barn and take it to market, the outside barns will just be of lower priority. But it seems more serious if the houses arent in the markets vicinity, as they will prefer the barn to the market still. Im not sure whatll happen here though, will citizens go to the market if theres no food left in the barn despite not being in the markets vicinity or starve?

[mbutton15]

Originally posted by Banished:

Originally posted by mbutton15:

You conclusion is also correct. - Put another way, a basic rule is more time spent walking, less time spent working. So really you will probabnly end up with a large central community to begin with. Then as you expand, you will have smaller communites that are as self-sufficient as you can make them.

what about the last question? Im still unsure of this...Im not sure whatll happen here though, will citizens go to the market if theres no food left in the barn despite not being in the markets vicinity or starve?

There is nothing to stop them going to the market as they are just looking to get food from anywhere they can.
Also on barn location. If you ever put a barn within the market location it will almost certainly be very empty most of the time. There's nothing wrong with it being there, and quite often I will have barns within market reach as I put my barns right next to farms, orchards and pastures and they are often within the outer reaches of the market area. Barns can go anywhere as barn placement is basically determined by work place due to the 'more time spent walking, less time spent working' principle. It's the market vendors job to keep the market well stocked so I let them do all the walking.

[Jet]

Good to know. I was afraid to place a market thats outside of my work homes vicinity(next to a river, not enough room) but if they will travel to the market to get food regardless of how far away it is from their home thats what I needed to hear. Just as long as they pick up the food under market rules and only take what they need, as opposed to how they would take from a barn, as you described above.

[mbutton15]

Originally posted by Banished:

Good to know. I was afraid to place a market thats outside of my work homes vicinity(next to a river, not enough room) but if they will travel to the market to get food regardless of how far away it is from their home thats what I needed to hear. Just as long as they pick up the food under market rules and only take what they need, as opposed to how they would take from a barn, as you described above.

I've never actually checked !! Just always assumed they would take it under barn rules as they are outside the market. I've looked in houses close, but outside, a market perimeter and they seem to follow the hoarding principle - but I'm willing to be proved wrong !!

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Banished:

QUESTION TIME: If the market doesnt touch the barn you guys have said its fine, itll still pick up items from the barn and take it to market, the outside barns will just be of lower priority. But it seems more serious if the houses arent in the markets vicinity, as they will prefer the barn to the market still. Im not sure whatll happen here though, will citizens go to the market if theres no food left in the barn despite not being in the markets vicinity or starve?

No, pops will walk to wherever they need to to get what they need. That's not the issue, The issue is you don't want them to becasue when they're walking they're not working, you want the market vendors to do the walking and the carrying as they are much more efficient at it.

As an example, let's say you have a forest node with foresters hut, gatheres hut and hunter's lodge and adjacent houses for the forester's, gatherers etc and that these houses are just outside the circle of influence of the local market. Let's say there is also a barn at this node, also outside the market's cicle.

Now the forest workers are going to have planty of berries and root veg etc and venison to eat from their own barn. But they won't have grain an they wont have firewood, coats or tools. To get those they will have to walk to the market.

So suppose you destroy this forest node barn and rebuild down the road a bit so it now lies within the local market's circle of influence (and the same for the log stockpile of copurse). This will casue the market's vendors to now visit this barn much. much more frequently and this in itself has two effects. First they will shift a lot of logs, berries and mushroom and venison etc to the market. Secondly they will stock the barn with food stuffs the forest workers don't make themselves, such as grain) and coats, firewood, tools etc. As a result of this the forest workers will produce more of everything as they can spend more time working.

But it does not stop there. The woodcutter in town no longer has to trek out to the forest stockpile to get logs to make firewood. The venison, mushrooms, berries etc are immediately avaiable for everyone else at the market. And if there are enough of them they will also be delivered out to outlying remote barns (as long as they are also within the market's circle of influence), for example those nexct to remote farmers houses and fields the other side of town - which of course means those farmers will be be more productive so they either produce more food or less of them can produce the same amount of food.

So to summarise:

1. Pops will always walk to market (or anywhere else) to get stuff they need, but market vendors won't stock barns with goodies that lie outside their market's circle of influence.

2. Market vendors jack up the overall productivity of your settlements because they have wheelbarrows and can transport a lot more stuff per trip therfore (roughly speaking) one delivery by a vendor to a remote barn replaces about four trips by farmers, foresters etc to the market. If you check the actual game time a forester takes to walk into town and back it will become obvious just how dramatic the effect of this is, and with farmers it can make a huge difference to crop yields as they won't get distracted from plant out and harvest so much.

3. It is difficult to decide how many market vendors you should allocate becasue there is no clear information in the UI to enable you to calculate it. A good rough and ready test is that if your farmer's and forester's and gather's barns are not stocked with tools and coats and such, but there are plenty at the market itself, you probably need more of them.

4. As a final general point because pops walking around and not workiing is your enemy, it follows that the more stuff you have avaiable and the more market vendors you have to shift it around the more your pops will have all their needs ready to hand so the less time thjey spend walking and the more workin leading to more stuff being produced overall. It's a virtuous circle. Good players aim for this situation and never have to worry about how much food etc pops have stored in their houses for example - the more the better 'cos that means tney they spend more time working.

[Hot Beer, Cold Dogs]

Barns and stockpiles can be ANYWHERE on the map for them to work. Of course closer is better but anywhere will work. The ideal setup is to have the houses and town production (ie. blacksmiths, tailors, brewers, maybe even woodcutters) inside the cirlce with barns and stockpiles just past the circle of influence. Rescource production like forest nodes and farms can be past that. (forest nodes are made up of gatherers, foresters, and hunters) The vendor workers will travel all around to barns and stockpiles, they can carry much more than normal workers or laborers. Obviously the more the vendor workers, the smoother the whole interaction will be. Markets are the heart of any city.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by PickledPickles:

Barns and stockpiles can be ANYWHERE on the map for them to work.

If that means what I think it means, then I don't think it's true. Of course I am also not entirely sure that I'm right that it's not true either :)

If you Google "banished market circle of influence" you will not find a definitive explnation of what the market circle of influnce does. You will find lotsd of speculation and lots of explanation of what it doesn't do, but not what it does do. This is mainly becasue it it very difficult to tell precicely what the market vendors do in detail (since hard to track all of them at once over a long period of time and still run the sattlement effectively).

What you appear to be arguing amounts to the idea that the market circle of influencce does nothing, has no effect on the collection/distribution bahaviour of vendors or the shopping behaviour of other pops.

I do not believe the cirtcle of influence serves no purpose - it must IMO have been put there for a reason and have some effect becasue if it's original purpose was taken out of the game during deevelopment it would have been trivial to remove the circle from the UI alltogether as well.

Therfore the question is WHAT does the market circles actually do?

My sense from playis that they take reposibility for stocking the market with goods produced within their market circle as a priority, taker reposnibility for stocking remote barns within their market cicle as a sewcond priority and then travel to collect goods not produced within their market circle as a third priority (if they have time in other words).

There may or may not be a mechanism to increase the priority to travel far to collect a specific essential good lacking at their market in certain circumstances, it is difficult to tell.

Vendors certainly stock barns within their market circle with goods but I do not beleive they do so for barns outside of their market cicle, certainly not under normal circumastance. It is posssible there is a mechanism that allows them to do so if they have done everything else and have nothing better to do, again it is difficult to tell.

[Hot Beer, Cold Dogs]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by PickledPickles:

Barns and stockpiles can be ANYWHERE on the map for them to work.

If that means what I think it means, then I don't think it's true. Of course I am also not entirely sure that I'm right that it's not true either :)

If you Google "banished market circle of influence" you will not find a definitive explnation of what the market circle of influnce does. You will find lotsd of speculation and lots of explanation of what it doesn't do, but not what it does do. This is mainly becasue it it very difficult to tell precicely what the market vendors do in detail (since hard to track all of them at once over a long period of time and still run the sattlement effectively).

What you appear to be arguing amounts to the idea that the market circle of influencce does nothing, has no effect on the collection/distribution bahaviour of vendors or the shopping behaviour of other pops.

I do not believe the cirtcle of influence serves no purpose - it must IMO have been put there for a reason and have some effect becasue if it's original purpose was taken out of the game during deevelopment it would have been trivial to remove the circle from the UI alltogether as well.

Therfore the question is WHAT does the market circles actually do?

My sense from playis that they take reposibility for stocking the market with goods produced within their market circle as a priority, taker reposnibility for stocking remote barns within their market cicle as a sewcond priority and then travel to collect goods not produced within their market circle as a third priority (if they have time in other words).

There may or may not be a mechanism to increase the priority to travel far to collect a specific essential good lacking at their market in certain circumstances, it is difficult to tell.

Vendors certainly stock barns within their market circle with goods but I do not beleive they do so for barns outside of their market cicle, certainly not under normal circumastance. It is posssible there is a mechanism that allows them to do so if they have done everything else and have nothing better to do, again it is difficult to tell.

The Cirlce is specificaly for the houses and only the houses. Any residence inside the cirlce will travel to the market for all their needs (ie. food, firewood, tools, clothes). Houses outside the cirlce will travel to barns and stockpiles which is inefficient because not all barns and stockpiles have everything which means the person would have to travel to multiple different barns to find what they need. Also barns inisde the cirlce are used as a secondary storage, like you said, for marketplaces. Vendors will only take from barns outside the radius.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by PickledPickles:

The Cirlce is specificaly for the houses and only the houses. Any residence inside the cirlce will travel to the market for all their needs (ie. food, firewood, tools, clothes). Houses outside the cirlce will travel to barns and stockpiles which is inefficient because not all barns and stockpiles have everything which means the person would have to travel to multiple different barns to find what they need. Also barns inisde the cirlce are used as a secondary storage, like you said, for marketplaces. Vendors will only take from barns outside the radius.

I am pretty sure that's not correct, with respect. I know for certain, for example, that remote farmers will collect tools and coats etc from their local barns that lie inside the market circle which have been placed there by market vendors.

As I mentioned above, the problem with this market cicle is that nobody knows definitively what it does. It's very difficult to set up tests to prove what it does.

[Hot Beer, Cold Dogs]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by PickledPickles:

The Cirlce is specificaly for the houses and only the houses. Any residence inside the cirlce will travel to the market for all their needs (ie. food, firewood, tools, clothes). Houses outside the cirlce will travel to barns and stockpiles which is inefficient because not all barns and stockpiles have everything which means the person would have to travel to multiple different barns to find what they need. Also barns inisde the cirlce are used as a secondary storage, like you said, for marketplaces. Vendors will only take from barns outside the radius.

I am pretty sure that's not correct, with respect. I know for certain, for example, that remote farmers will collect tools and coats etc from their local barns that lie inside the market circle which have been placed there by market vendors.

As I mentioned above, the problem with this market cicle is that nobody knows definitively what it does. It's very difficult to set up tests to prove what it does.

If you mean "remote" as in outside the market cirlce then yes, that is exactly what they will do. Iv'e seen the same thing happen. They get their things from the nearest barns or stockpiles.
The market only applies to actual houses.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by PickledPickles:

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

I am pretty sure that's not correct, with respect. I know for certain, for example, that remote farmers will collect tools and coats etc from their local barns that lie inside the market circle which have been placed there by market vendors.

As I mentioned above, the problem with this market cicle is that nobody knows definitively what it does. It's very difficult to set up tests to prove what it does.

If you mean "remote" as in outside the market cirlce then yes, that is exactly what they will do. Iv'e seen the same thing happen. They get their things from the nearest barns or stockpiles.
The market only applies to actual houses.

No, I mean remote as in "outside town but inside the market circle of influence". The market vendors ignore barns outside their market circle, they will only (or certainly usually only) stock and collect from barns inside it, from what I see.

I am reasoably sure that the mechanics of the market and it's circle ignores houses alltogether, houses have nothing to do with markets. Pops will go get what it is they want/need from the nearest source wherever it is so pops don't have anything to do with market mechanics either. If what they want is in a local barn they will get it from there, if it isn't, they'll walk to market.

The market and vendors are bascially about stocks, storage structures (barns, stockpiles etc) and distribution.

[pdoan8]

People will get foods/tool/cloth/fuel from the nearest available.

Market offers more veriety. So people who get food from the market, will get a little bit of everything. People who live near the market (inside the range cirle or close enough) will prefer the market for food veriety. I think the circle is happiness boost range.

Venders will get the materials from the nearest available, but there is no limit to how far they will go to get the materials.

This is how far one of my vender goes to collect berries:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1078685388