New roguelike gambling games are not Balatro-likes

[Eleveneleven]

Luck Be A Landlord started them

[marharols]

Wouldn't say they are Balatro-likes but i definitely wouldn't call them luck be a landlord-likes. I can understand people calling Bingle Bingle similar to Balatro as they both use the chips x mult system.

Modern rougelikes have often to a degree heavily RNG games filled with gambling elements, and these new games make it into the style. They are really just stripping the facade.

[Zouls]

PUBG wasnt the first battleroyale either.

Most roguelikes are nothing like rogue.

Genres are useful because a game that people know and like is a shorthand to explain it, not what came first.

[Scrub]

Nobody called them Faceball 2000 clones they called them Doom clones.

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Zouls:

PUBG wasnt the first battleroyale either.

Most roguelikes are nothing like rogue.

Genres are useful because a game that people know and like is a shorthand to explain it, not what came first.

The games that I'd say that are actually roguelikes are like Rogue.
The problem is that a lot of people stick the roguelike tag on things that aren't roguelikes just because it features (say) randomized dungeons.

[Zouls]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Originally posted by Zouls:

PUBG wasnt the first battleroyale either.

Most roguelikes are nothing like rogue.

Genres are useful because a game that people know and like is a shorthand to explain it, not what came first.

The games that I'd say that are actually roguelikes are like Rogue.
The problem is that a lot of people stick the roguelike tag on things that aren't roguelikes just because it features (say) randomized dungeons.

Then mention 5 "actual roguelikes" and i bet your ass they dont fulfill the official criteria set at the belgian games conference for what a roguelike is.

[Goblin]

Originally posted by Zouls:

Originally posted by Draco18s:

The games that I'd say that are actually roguelikes are like Rogue.
The problem is that a lot of people stick the roguelike tag on things that aren't roguelikes just because it features (say) randomized dungeons.

Then mention 5 "actual roguelikes" and i bet your ass they dont fulfill the official criteria set at the belgian games conference for what a roguelike is.

I think you'll find that Berlin is in fact in Germany, not Belgium.
As for 5 games, off the top of my head: Nethack, Cataclysm, Brogue, Crawl, DoomRL. If you don't mind the low value factor of ascii art being broken, I'd also add Dungeons of Dredmor and Caves of Qud, heck Dwarf Fortress' adventure mode counts. I'd even sooner count the Mystery Dungeon games (mostly known for the pokemon ones, but there's others) despite them not having permadeath - at least they're the same genre of gameplay as Rogue unlike most roguelites like Balatro.

[Fingusa of the East]

Originally posted by Goblin:

Originally posted by Zouls:

Then mention 5 "actual roguelikes" and i bet your ass they dont fulfill the official criteria set at the belgian games conference for what a roguelike is.

I think you'll find that Berlin is in fact in Germany, not Belgium.
As for 5 games, off the top of my head: Nethack, Cataclysm, Brogue, Crawl, DoomRL. If you don't mind the low value factor of ascii art being broken, I'd also add Dungeons of Dredmor and Caves of Qud, heck Dwarf Fortress' adventure mode counts. I'd even sooner count the Mystery Dungeon games (mostly known for the pokemon ones, but there's others) despite them not having permadeath - at least they're the same genre of gameplay as Rogue unlike most roguelites like Balatro.

Most MD games (Chocobo, Etrian, Pokémon etc.) have perma progression and no permadeath so they should not fulfill the criteria.

Qud has metaprogression.

CDDA has metaprogression.

[Goblin]

Originally posted by Fingusa of the East:

Most MD games (Chocobo, Etrian, Pokémon etc.) have perma progression and no permadeath so they should not fulfill the criteria.

Qud has metaprogression.

CDDA has metaprogression.

Qud does not have metaprogression: https://steamcommunity.com/app/333640/discussions/0/541907867779123850/
So that already leaves the list at 5.

CDDA you can argue about, it just locks out some start scenarios to save newbies from picking them. You still gain no strength over multiple runs - they're effectively challenges. Last I checked you have to turn on the metaprogression on worldgen yourself - and before June 2022 it wasn't a thing. I know a lot of people who play older versions of the game because of various reasons, this being one of them. The game is 12 years old, didn't have it for most of its lifetime.

I didn't say MD games fit the Berlin Interpretation, I just said I'd sooner count them as roguelikes than the most-Berlin-interpreted poker game you could make - because poker isn't a top down turn based RPG, and Rogue is.

[sab0t]

Originally posted by Goblin:

Originally posted by Zouls:

Then mention 5 "actual roguelikes" and i bet your ass they dont fulfill the official criteria set at the belgian games conference for what a roguelike is.

I think you'll find that Berlin is in fact in Germany, not Belgium.
As for 5 games, off the top of my head: Nethack, Cataclysm, Brogue, Crawl, DoomRL. If you don't mind the low value factor of ascii art being broken, I'd also add Dungeons of Dredmor and Caves of Qud, heck Dwarf Fortress' adventure mode counts. I'd even sooner count the Mystery Dungeon games (mostly known for the pokemon ones, but there's others) despite them not having permadeath - at least they're the same genre of gameplay as Rogue unlike most roguelites like Balatro.

i have nothing to add to this discussion except that this is a list of great games, i own / have played almost all of these lol.

another fantastic rogue-like that just released - https://store.steampowered.com/app/2058570/Rift_Wizard_2/

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Fingusa of the East:

Most MD games (Chocobo, Etrian, Pokémon etc.) have perma progression and no permadeath so they should not fulfill the criteria.

I literally looked this up like two days ago. So yeah, I kinda do know what the factors that make a roguelike are.

But you want five? Alright.

Cog Mind, Rift Wizard, Dungeons of Dredmor, Streets of Rogue, Tales of Maj'Eyal, Unreal World, Ancient Domains of Mystery, Dwarf Fortress, Pixel Dungeons, Enchanted Cave, KeeperRL. Just to name the ones I've actually played.

Here's a couple more that I've either got wishlisted, own and haven't played, or otherwise know about:
Wayward, Golden Krone Hotel, Soulash, Dredgers

Anyway.

Meta progression is not in the Berlin Interpretation key factors. Permadeath is, but "notes that a missing factor does not eliminate a game from being a roguelike, nor does possessing the features make a game roguelike."

The nine Key factors:

(1) Random factors during procedural content generation, typically dungeons, but can apply to other aspects (such as potions)
(2) Permadeath
(3) Turn based
(4) Grid based
(5) Non-modal (every action is "always" available, noting that shops do not break this factor)
(6) Complex and emergent gameplay with multiple solutions to problems
(7) The player must use resource management to survive
(8) The game is focused on hack and slash-based gameplay
(9) The game requires the player to explore the world, and discover the purpose of unidentified items

The four Low Value factors:

(1) Single character
(2) Monsters have behavior that is similar to the player-character (drink potions, use scrolls, etc)
(3) A tactical challenge that may require players to play through several times to learn how to succeed
(4) The game presents the status of the player and the game through numbers on the game's screen/interface

[Zouls]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Originally posted by Fingusa of the East:

Most MD games (Chocobo, Etrian, Pokémon etc.) have perma progression and no permadeath so they should not fulfill the criteria.

I literally looked this up like two days ago. So yeah, I kinda do know what the factors that make a roguelike are.

But you want five? Alright.

Cog Mind, Rift Wizard, Dungeons of Dredmor, Streets of Rogue, Tales of Maj'Eyal, Unreal World, Ancient Domains of Mystery, Dwarf Fortress, Pixel Dungeons, Enchanted Cave, KeeperRL. Just to name the ones I've actually played.

Here's a couple more that I've either got wishlisted, own and haven't played, or otherwise know about:
Wayward, Golden Krone Hotel, Soulash, Dredgers

Anyway.

Meta progression is not in the Berlin Interpretation key factors. Permadeath is, but "notes that a missing factor does not eliminate a game from being a roguelike, nor does possessing the features make a game roguelike."

The nine Key factors:

(1) Random factors during procedural content generation, typically dungeons, but can apply to other aspects (such as potions)
(2) Permadeath
(3) Turn based
(4) Grid based
(5) Non-modal (every action is "always" available, noting that shops do not break this factor)
(6) Complex and emergent gameplay with multiple solutions to problems
(7) The player must use resource management to survive
(8) The game is focused on hack and slash-based gameplay
(9) The game requires the player to explore the world, and discover the purpose of unidentified items

The four Low Value factors:

(1) Single character
(2) Monsters have behavior that is similar to the player-character (drink potions, use scrolls, etc)
(3) A tactical challenge that may require players to play through several times to learn how to succeed
(4) The game presents the status of the player and the game through numbers on the game's screen/interface

and its what i mean, everytime people say "but actually roguelike isnt that" its a term used broadly primarily for

1 and 2.

Random factors and "permadeath", and roguelite is a spinoff of that but the terms are used to interchangably that there is no value in making the distinction other than to rub nerd e peens against the screen for validation.

Also all the roguelike games mentioned are, surprisingly, almost nowhere to be seen in the roguelike category which has tons of other stuff.

so its just silly to act like the term hasnt evolved, especially if people arent willing to follow the only somewhat agreed upon interpretation, all of which are further made silly by the fact that so few of them are actually "like rogue"

[GDJ]

I am fascinated by this back and forth. Not being sarcastic.

[kripcision]

Originally posted by Draco18s:

Originally posted by Zouls:

PUBG wasnt the first battleroyale either.

Most roguelikes are nothing like rogue.

Genres are useful because a game that people know and like is a shorthand to explain it, not what came first.

The games that I'd say that are actually roguelikes are like Rogue.
The problem is that a lot of people stick the roguelike tag on things that aren't roguelikes just because it features (say) randomized dungeons.

same deal with people slapping "soulslike" tags on everything lol.

[Shot_Trip]

Originally posted by marharols:

Wouldn't say they are Balatro-likes but i definitely wouldn't call them luck be a landlord-likes. I can understand people calling Bingle Bingle similar to Balatro as they both use the chips x mult system.

Modern rougelikes have often to a degree heavily RNG games filled with gambling elements, and these new games make it into the style. They are really just stripping the facade.

Bingle Bingle is a lot different because of how it handles hands/discards/rolls, really, which cost me a few runs, lol

[Draco18s]

Originally posted by Zouls:

Also all the roguelike games mentioned are, surprisingly, almost nowhere to be seen in the roguelike category which has tons of other stuff.

"Things people call roguelikes" and "things that are roguelikes" are different.
"Roguelike" has an official definition, the fact that everything that vaguely rubs up against one of its primary features getting slapped with the tag just means that people are using the tag wrong.

As for "almost nowhere to be seen in the roguelike category"

Let me see here...
Yes a lot of these are improperly tagged, but.
- Hades, arguably a true roguelike, even if not tile based or turn based.
- Risk of Rain (1, 2, Returns), arguably a true roguelike blended with the side scrolling shooter
- Vampire Survivors, arguably a true roguelike blended with other things that has now becomes its own genre
- Hellcard, arguably a true roguelike blended with a deckbuilder.
- KeeperRL
- Wizard with a Gun and Tiny Rogues, arguably true roguelikes blended with bullet hell.
- Into the Breech, arguably a true roguelike blended with Advanced Tactics
- Streets of Rogue
- Rogue Tower, probably more roguelite but features key items 1,2,4, and 6.

Then we have the Traditional Roguelike tag. What do we have here?

Why in position #2, Rift Wizard.
Position #4, Caves of Qud.
Soulash, Jupiter Hell, Tales of Maj'Eyal, The Doors of Trithius, Shattered Pixel Dungeon, Cogmind, ADOM, Dungeons of Dreadmore, Unreal World...

Hell the only thing in here that I object to being tagged "roguelike" is the #1 entry, Kādomon (which I have now raised a query for). Magicraft might be more towards the "survivors-like" end of the spectrum, but, still. It's more roguelike than not.