SU-11 at 7.0

[Jared]

The SU-11 is one of Gaijins most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ excuses of pay to win at low tier jets. The SU-11 has a great climbrate, turn rate, outstanding guns, and unparalleled energy retention. The SU-11 is by far the most overpowered low tier jet premium that has ever been added to the game. Its appalling that Gaijin even considers this Soviet wonderjet fair and balanced at the BR that it is at. It needs to be pushed up and out of the 7.0-7.3 range because its performance is ridiculous. The jet is in lack of other words/ examples, a MiG-15bis at 7.0. This is not some "rUsSiAn BiAs" rant, this is pure truth. I avidly enjoy 7.0 jets, even more than Top Tier regardless of owning the F-14A, but the SU-11 simply ruins the game at the BR it is currently in. In a recent match, playing the ME-262C-1a, the SU-11 had zero issues keeping up with my fighter at a full nose dive with the rear booster active. I sat back after being eliminated and just thought, "What the ♥♥♥♥?"

During Test flights of the SU-11, this jet turns like a monster and to top if off, barely loses any speed in the process of making a full turn around. In my test I had the fighter jet reach a speed of around 920 KM/H which is just at Mach 0,76 at 1460 Meters high, I used one of my elevator key binds and rolled the aircraft to the left. During the turn I had to counter the G-Forces my slightly pulling Negative Gs which affected the total speed lost ever so slightly. At the end of a full U-Turn in the jet, I lost a total of 100 KM/H respectively not including any other outside variables. Note I was carrying 20 minutes of fuel, and to balance out the comparison, I held the same fuel on the ME-262A-1a.

To compare performance to it's direct brother, the ME-262A-1a, I performed the same test. I carried 20 minutes of fuel, climbed to 1460m high and accelerated to the same/or as close to the same speed of 920 KM/H. In my test, I was only able to push the ME-262A-1a to 842 KM/H in level flight, I used this speed and performed the same Left roll and full elevator turn with the counteraction of G-Forces. After the turn, I checked my speed which was 747 KM/H, similar to the speed lost with the SU-11.

Another note to mention is the amount of time that it actually took to even push the ME-262A-1a to it's limits. It took roughly 4 minutes of flying in direct level flight to reach it's limit.
In conclusion, I don't believe that the SU-11 is a Soviet Russian Bias UFO, but I do believe that it's performance does not match 7.0. It's max speed, turn rate, climb rate, and over all performance makes it seem like a MiG-15Bis in a game of P-51D-5s. Jets at this BR typically take extended periods of time to reach their top speed, but flying the SU-11 made this seem effortless. Personally, I believe that a fair BR-change for the SU-11 would be at 7.7. This is not a far increase in BR and the aircraft that it will fight against have similar performance to the SU-11 itself. I appreciate you for reading this discussion and I am willing to take outside feedback as long as it isn't disrespectful in nature.

Note: I do not have anything done in the Soviet Tree so I do not know how the SU-9 performs, if someone owns it and it is spaded, it would be appreciated to send the same results of the test here to compare it to the SU-11!

[HeatedWafflez]

this thing out-performs 6.0 aircraft in climb rate, speed, and even turn time. it doesn't really handle like a 7.0 early gen jetbut i doubt it'll change seeing as soviet bias seems to be ever more prominent.

[Akagi]

The Su-11 is the excuse for the F-89D to be at the exact same br. Both jets are broken and horribly undertiered. Now imagine if those things could research rank 7, the spam would be unbearable

Edit: I own the the Su-9. It performs like a slightly better Me 262 but other than that I think both can sit at a the same br.

What's more of a problem other than the Su-11 the entirety of US jets. The F-80A outspeeds, outturns, out energies and outguns both the 262 as well as the Su-9 (spray n pray 50 cals are way better for transitioning to the jet age than with slow and heavy 30mm and 37mm cannons. Then we have the F-84B which is basically an 50 cals Su-11 that trades turning for an air spawn. F3D feels bulky but can hold up with the Me 262 + has air spawn.

And then there's the F-89D.
If you thought the Su-11 was broken, then behold this monstrosity.
After burner at 7.0
Faster than the F-84B and Su-11
Proximity fused missiles.

This thing can kill you in a head on by spamming 20-30 rockets (don't worry it only has 120 in total) at a 5-3 km distance without even properly hutting you (proximiy fuse).
Scenario 2 would be it flying over you and approaching you from behind. You might survive by turning (which it can't) but that energy loss means you are ez pray for any conventional earlly jet. And like an F-84B in a downtier, you'll never be able to catch that damn thing unless the player is mentally deranged and tries turning like a Zero.

So yeah, jets in general are completely busted

[JuX]

Don't forget about the Chinese A-5C premium.

[Jared]

Originally posted by Akagi:

The Su-11 is the excuse for the F-89D to be at the exact same br. Both jets are broken and horribly undertiered. Now imagine if those things could research rank 7, the spam would be unbearable

Edit: I own the the Su-9. It performs like a slightly better Me 262 but other than that I think both can sit at a the same br.

What's more of a problem other than the Su-11 the entirety of US jets. The F-80A outspeeds, outturns, out energies and outguns both the 262 as well as the Su-9 (spray n pray 50 cals are way better for transitioning to the jet age than with slow and heavy 30mm and 37mm cannons. Then we have the F-84B which is basically an 50 cals Su-11 that trades turning for an air spawn. F3D feels bulky but can hold up with the Me 262 + has air spawn.

And then there's the F-89D.
If you thought the Su-11 was broken, then behold this monstrosity.
After burner at 7.0
Faster than the F-84B and Su-11
Proximity fused missiles.

This thing can kill you in a head on by spamming 20-30 rockets (don't worry it only has 120 in total) at a 5-3 km distance without even properly hutting you (proximiy fuse).
Scenario 2 would be it flying over you and approaching you from behind. You might survive by turning (which it can't) but that energy loss means you are ez pray for any conventional earlly jet. And like an F-84B in a downtier, you'll never be able to catch that damn thing unless the player is mentally deranged and tries turning like a Zero.

So yeah, jets in general are completely busted

I appreciate your input with the SU-9's Performance, but you also have to remember that the F-89D is less seen in game than the F-89B due to it's higher cost. Not many people are willing to spend 10,000 GE for a singular fighter jet that is A, Massive and B. Turns awfully.
Personally I own the F-89B variant and I can positively say that it really is not that good of a plane (I would refund it in a flash). Yes, it does have the after burners on it which give it speed, but it's guns can be finicky at times (Possibly a skill issue) and the plane is massive. Its hit box even from the side is humongous and it's poor rudder performance as well as it's wings made of paper which seemingly rip at any sort of negative G forces really pushes it's performance overall down.

I will have to agree with the F-84 issue. F-84B-G etc. are the most annoying aircraft to deal with, they shouldn't get an attackers air spawn, but maybe just spawn right above the airfield at around 200 meters or so because the 50 cal spam in those jets is atrocious. The P-80A-5 is also another semi-problematic aircraft, but one thing that is crucial to remember is that it is an American jet. US pilots, including myself, have learned over time that simply holding down our fire bind especially with 50 cals is the best strategy to annoy the ever-living ♥♥♥♥ out of people. Most people either forget the range and damage of the 50 cals, or simply take stupid head on fights which as anyone who has fought against the US nose mounted 50 cals knows, is pretty much a death-wish or an invitation back to the airfield to repair your severely stricken aircraft

[Jared]

Originally posted by JuX:

Don't forget about the Chinese A-5C premium.

Difference here is that the A-5C pilots typically have no idea what they are doing, just watch your back if there is one with altitude and keep your AB off during a fight to ensure that you're not locked up by a heat seeker.

[Akagi]

Originally posted by J. Gatsby:

I appreciate your input with the SU-9's Performance, but you also have to remember that the F-89D is less seen in game than the F-89B due to it's higher cost. Not many people are willing to spend 10,000 GE for a singular fighter jet that is A, Massive and B. Turns awfully.

Back then when I grinded the Squadron Me 262 after its release (let's say 2.5 years ago) those F-89Ds were everywhere. Dealing with one was a pain in the ass, but when you had 3-5 F-89Ds it was an automatic win for the enemy. Apparently their rockets got nerfed over time but when I started grinding my Russian jets this year I nothing really has changed aside from the br. Imagine being a fluuy downtiered Tu-14 and that thing just casually catches up to you and slamms rockets into your tail 3 km away from you. My only guess why it's less common nowadays is cause it can't research rank 7 and it got basically "replaced" by the F-5C.

Originally posted by J. Gatsby:

Personally I own the F-89B variant and I can positively say that it really is not that good of a plane (I would refund it in a flash). Yes, it does have the after burners on it which give it speed, but it's guns can be finicky at times (Possibly a skill issue) and the plane is massive. Its hit box even from the side is humongous and it's poor rudder performance as well as it's wings made of paper which seemingly rip at any sort of negative G forces really pushes it's performance overall down.

Yeah I can imagine that it's hard to point your guns accuratly. Your best chance I guess is to use its brrrrt for either headons (both german and russian bullets are slow and heavy) at a further distance than your enemy or to space climb and then try gliding down to your enemy's tail without throttle. Well, at least that's what I'd do out of my experience dealing with it.
Imo the D is easier to use due to the rockets having proxy fuse and neither should sit at 7.3 (let alone 7.0).

But int the end this is just the result of horrible balancing combined with absurd br compression. Thx 4 nothing Gaijin

[JuX]

Originally posted by J. Gatsby:

Originally posted by JuX:

Don't forget about the Chinese A-5C premium.

Difference here is that the A-5C pilots typically have no idea what they are doing, just watch your back if there is one with altitude and keep your AB off during a fight to ensure that you're not locked up by a heat seeker.

Not really.

A-5C is 10 br, so it's guaranteed to be in 9.3-10.3 battles. It's a super sonic jet with counter-measures and overpowered missiles for it's tier.

While in contrast only 10.3+'s have flares with few exceptions on subsonic jets. So majority of standard jet players have no flares and they cannot out-turn A-5C's missiles. Doesn't matter if you have afterburner on or not.

And RWR doesn't work on IR missiles, so your hope is to check your six religiously. And only way to even have a chance of surviving is flying by the "speed is life" motto and remain at mach speeds.

[Jared]

Originally posted by JuX:

Originally posted by J. Gatsby:

Difference here is that the A-5C pilots typically have no idea what they are doing, just watch your back if there is one with altitude and keep your AB off during a fight to ensure that you're not locked up by a heat seeker.

Not really.

A-5C is 10 br, so it's guaranteed to be in 9.3-10.3 battles. It's a super sonic jet with counter-measures and overpowered missiles for it's tier.

While in contrast only 10.3+'s have flares with few exceptions on subsonic jets. So majority of standard jet players have no flares and they cannot out-turn A-5C's missiles. Doesn't matter if you have afterburner on or not.

And RWR doesn't work on IR missiles, so your hope is to check your six religiously. And only way to even have a chance of surviving is flying by the "speed is life" motto and remain at mach speeds.

In jets you should always be watching your six? Its a given thing to do. Of course missiles that are heat seekers are not going to show up on RWR because they dont require the radar to be used, now you are able to slew your AiM-9s to the Radar which would give them a warning.

And the easiest way to dodge a IR missile, same with an RWR missile, is to not let yourself be tracked in the first place. Check your surroundings and do not always run afterburners. Your AB gives you a massive heat cone behind your aircraft, and on some like the F-4C-J, the massive J79 engines allocate a heat seeker to be fired head on. Another way to dodge a AiM-9 or another rear aspect maneuver is to maintain your speed, drop your throttle (to decrease heat sig) and pull a hard, roll type of maneuver at the last second that confuses the missile and does not let it track. This of course won't work in all situations, but in my own testing, it has worked quite well. Radar-guided missiles are another story, AiM-54A Phoenixes are easy to dodge by doing a "Joust" maneuver where you head on the missile at MACH 1+ and pull a similar roll maneuver that it is unable to follow, different story with AiM-7Fs, which I have no idea how to dodge at the current time.

Lastly, the A-5C is a "Trans-Sonic" jet. It has the exact same frame as the MiG-19 with some obvious changes to the cockpit of the jet. The A-5C needs a decline to reach MACH 1, but it can hold that speed if it continues a minor decrease in speed. Best bet to fight the A-5Cs is to test their patience, if you continue to dodge all of their guns and missiles (Referring back to my method above), they will typically lose patience and try and go all in for the kill which you can catch them off guard. Remember, Patience is a virtue, and War Thunder takes a lot of it. Play the long game, it will get you further!