A way to "fix" Germany over-time.

[Graephen]

As you may know, most of the German mains are just utterly stupid. This is not just painful for every other War Thunder player, because they're favoured by the balancing team, since bad players have bad efficiency, but also for people, who'd like to play Germany normally, like me on occasion. I had 10 games this week, where, despite ending-up 2nd or 1st with 8+ kills, the team just gets steamrolled and then you see a guy suicide-bomb in a JU-87 B-2 at 5.7, where they tend to use the plane, because it's the only one with a siren.

Wehraboos are terrible. The way to somehow mitigate this, is simple, though, but Gaijin would have to change BRs of quite a few vehicles, without using the efficiency stat as guidance, which would be a miracle. Rank I needs to be harder, so that German mains progress slower and learn more, without relying on using borderline-overpowered vehicles.

- Rank I vehicles need to get hit with a nerfbat the size of a poplar tree;
Pz. I tanks and all their variants need to be added and made reserve tanks along with the existing Pz IIIs. Pz. I is a light tank on the left side of the tree - more info below.

- 6 Rad Sdkfz. 232 with the 20mm is added above Pz. I

- Sdkfz. 221 is put above the 231. Now you can hopefully imagine the left ground tree. People have to go through more tanks > will reach rank III and above later and have a chance to learn the game better. Germany has more light tanks now and they are more interesting!

- Sdkfz. 222 with the 20mm is added above Sdkfz. 221 with the 2,8cm at 2.7
It was a very capable, common and fast armoured car and will decimate tanks at it's BR with the HVAP belt. Top speed is 80(!) Km/h.

-Sdkfz. 222 and 15cm SiG need to move up as well - it is about time, overpressure made this vehicle a very-capable tank destroyer. Squeezy-boi can beat rank II tanks easily and it is a very fun and stealthy vehicle and deserves to earn more sp and credits. It's wasted on Rank I!

- One of the Pz. IIs loses it's HVAP and stays at Rank I, the other is moved to rank II and uptiered to at least 2.0. Premium DAK goes to at least 1.7, same with the Aufklarungspanzer. Some of these would be better-balanced, if the HVAP belt was mixed with Pzgr.


- Flakpanzer I goes to 1.0, loses HVAP - it is an SPAA. Instead, people use it as a third Pz. II. Flakpanzer 38 goes to 1.7 and keeps it's HVAP. It's mobile and fun to play.

- Sdkfz. 6/2 gets it's HVAP back in a mixed HVAP/Pzgr. belt and uptiered to 3.0

- Sdkfz. 234/1 needs to go to at least 3.3. This thing is a German R3, that is a little easier to hit, immune to rifle-calibre machineguns, has more pen, than the R3 and the belt is pure HVAP, as opposed to the R3s mixed belt. It would do best at 3.3 Rank III, which would make some people very happy, as they would be able to complete missions in it.

- Meanwhile, Germany begins to have issues around 4.0-5.7, where there's not many other options, than slow, heavy tanks. Yes, this is where the crying begins.

-Even the medium tanks are quite heavy, the slow TDs have beautiful guns, but are open-topped and clunky. Germany lacks a good rank III light tank/armored car, but meanwhile, it has the Sdkfz. 234/2, which is tottaly braindead-level of overpowered at it's BR and has access to two, very powerful rounds. 106mm of pen at 10m on APHE shell on a light tank at 2.7 is a LOT and smart people tend to abuse this thing's low BR and rank to farm quick SP to get CAS early. I've seen this thing DO WELL as far as 5.7! This is why Sdkfz. 234/2 should be a Rank III 3.7 light tank, it's previous spot replaced by the Sdkfz. 222 with the 20mm cannon armed with HVAP at 2.3.

- One more light vehicle would be nice around 4.7, but this is where my suggestions end, as I have no idea what I'd put in there :( Maybe something modern?

- BF109's entire tree needs to be nerfed. It overperforms, when compared to anything, but other overperforming planes, like some Spitfire variants, P-51s, or Yak-9Ts and some Japanese planes. It climbs ridiculously well and is the only reason people thing Germany is overpowered in Air battles.

Would you like me to suggest this on the main forums? Do you think it would have some success? I simply cannot stand the way Wehraboos are favoured, because they're just bad. Especially, when like half of them are kids spamming nazi stuff in the chat. Plus, I think my changes would make Germany more fun to play, while it would be more balanced and you'd finally have a light tank at lower BR than 6.3 to do missions in.

EDIT: Added the BF109 issue, because YES THEY ARE an issue and I do have the Bf109 F4 Trop as one of my favourite planes. Still prefer the FWs tho - I don't need to climb to space to do well.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo?]

To be honest, you are barking up the wrong tree here. The problem is not limited to Germany, try to play US and you'll find players there are just as horrible. And to be perfectly clear, Russia isn't far behind.

You can try to band-aid by changing this vehicle, adjusting that BR until you are blue in the face, not a single thing will change. People will still be stupid.

And since you can't fix stupid, you have to acknowledge it, and work around it.

The only way that is going to work is skill-based matchmaking.

At the moment, WT has essentially the opposite, random matchmaking with the option to join in premade squads. Since you study game design, I guess I don't need to tell you how devastating that is to team balance with the small team sizes we have.

Two teams, sixteen players each:

Team A - 10 complete morons, 3 bad, 3 average
Team B - 10 complete morons, 3 good, 3 excellent

Results are predictable.

[Slyke]

Skill-based matchmaking is a double-edged sword. It doesn't create an environment where everyone gets to comfortably play at their own levels. It creates an environment where everyone has to go full tryhard 100% of the time.

Add in-game economy to the equation and you get an endless cycle where doing well only limits your ability to make profit in the long run.

[whatdoesthisbuttondo?]

Publicado originalmente por Curst:

Skill-based matchmaking is a double-edged sword. It doesn't create an environment where everyone gets to comfortably play at their own levels. It creates an environment where everyone has to go full tryhard 100% of the time.

Add in-game economy to the equation and you get an endless cycle where doing well only limits your ability to make profit in the long run.

Well, the other alternative would be actual random matchmaking, meaning removal of the option to squad up for a match.

As it currently stands, 9 out of 10 matches are a complete waste of time as they are so ridiculously lopsided that it isn't even fun when you win.

[shadain597]

I think a big, yet fairly easy QoL adjustment for GRB would actually be to put a cap on the number of players from any one nation on each team. Anecdotally, my win rates in Germany shot way up when Germany players made up no more than 3/4 of the team, and it's not as simple as the other nations hard-carrying Germany to victory.

Most of Germany's WW2 lineups are rather lacking in variety; even though they get a good number of vehicles, most of those have extremely similar strengths and weaknesses. Having a greater variety of vehicles on the team seems to be quite helpful.

Publicado originalmente por whatdoesthisbuttondo?:

At the moment, WT has essentially the opposite, random matchmaking with the option to join in premade squads. Since you study game design, I guess I don't need to tell you how devastating that is to team balance with the small team sizes we have.

Two teams, sixteen players each:

Team A - 10 complete morons, 3 bad, 3 average
Team B - 10 complete morons, 3 good, 3 excellent

Results are predictable.

TBH, I think it's even easier than that to tip the balance; just ensuring that your team has 2-3 semi-competent, team players is a big deal.

Publicado originalmente por Curst:

Add in-game economy to the equation and you get an endless cycle where doing well only limits your ability to make profit in the long run.

Well, in theory it should also lead to repairs/profits being fixed, since there should be less people getting 7.0 KDRs in some vehicles. . . But we are talking about Gaijin here, so it would be safer to assume that they'd instead look for a way to make the economy even worse. . .

Publicado originalmente por whatdoesthisbuttondo?:

As it currently stands, 9 out of 10 matches are a complete waste of time as they are so ridiculously lopsided that it isn't even fun when you win.

To be fair, a big part of that is A) the inherent design of the modes leads to snowballing and B) the borked economy actively encourages players to cut their losses and quit early, rather than stick it out to the bitter end.

[Graephen]

Publicado originalmente por Mirage:

Publicado originalmente por Graephen:

Then you're the problem, along with the other ignorant people.
A German main, who refuses to learn is so typical of War Thunder, I think it only happens with one other game and that being Company of Heroes.

Yeah I'm the problem for not wasting my time on a rant that starts with 'most of the German mains are just utterly stupid' and continue to have that sort of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ exist within the community.

I play other nations and its a way different experience to play Americans or Italy.