Thoughts on the M18 "overpowered" issue.

[Windwalker]

I think the problem rests in a combination of several factors in addition to the over-penetration problem already discussed in other forums/posts.

1. Cross country speed of 50kph means they can out run the traverse speed of most all german and russian tanks. At 1200m ranges this is not a particular problem, but this really impacts the close range engagements, say 300m or less of some of the maps. And yes, this problem can be mitigated to some degree by pivot-steering the whole tank like an assault gun.

2. Their own 20 degrees of traverse per second means they can traverse while moving at speed, thereby reducing the time needed to re-lay the gun during the quick stops to fire between racing from one spot to the next.

3. Their reload time of 6.7 or thereabouts, while not spectacular, still beats the pitiful reload rates gaijin has assigned to their competetors such as Panthers, Tigers, T34/85s, etc...
Who needs thick armor when you can simply race up to a tiger or panther secure in the fact that you can stay ahead of his traverse and get a good 3-4 shots off at him in the time it takes him to reload just once.

Whats missing in the game are the AT guns, panzerfausts,machine guns and rifles of the infantry that accompanied the tanks and forced their real life M18 counterparts to keep their distance and engage from overwatch positions rather than the rush/assault tactics we see being used in the game.

And on the topic of reload rates, not sure where gaijin is getting their times from. As a young tank platoon leader / tank commander of M60A1 and M1 platoons in the 80s, I remember our loaders could load the maingun in about 3-4 seconds with a little practice, and that was with 105mm rounds! Shave another second off that time if they were already cradling the next round in their arms waiting. In fact that was the standard they trained to. Surely WW2 veterans were just as efficient, if not faster with the smaller caliber rounds they were slinging around in their turrets?

Give the Russian and German tanks realistic reload times, sprinkle in a few lowly infantry with panzerfausts/panzerschreks to support the tanks in close quarters, and then see how successful the M18s are at racing around the lumbering elephants and dominating the game.

[Polarization]

opps forgot about use your machine guns noob lol :

first not every tank has one,

second your telling people to fire their MG at a tank for little to no effect when its firing 76mm rounds at you every 6 seconds lol

becuase if they use their main gun its ineffectual with a direct hit against this light tank lol

7.62 and other low calibre MG do almost nothing excelt when you can fire down into the turret,

but the best and most reliable MG for taking out light vehicles is the 50 cal which is on the M18 lol, which makes it an even better spawn camper

[LupisVolk]

Most US tanks have a .50cal. faire that at the side where the turret is and you'll ♥♥♥♥ it out.

But also the 7mm guns do also pen. i have one damadge my egnine.

[MMOGamer71]

LupisVolk a écrit :

Most US tanks have a .50cal. faire that at the side where the turret is and you'll ♥♥♥♥ it out.

But also the 7mm guns do also pen. i have one damadge my egnine.

You mean the same place I can spam HE at all day long destroying the commanders Zippo lighter and knocking over the gunners cup of coffee while leaving the crew, models and tank intact?

[Polarization]

LupisVolk a écrit :

Most US tanks have a .50cal. faire that at the side where the turret is and you'll ♥♥♥♥ it out.

But also the 7mm guns do also pen. i have one damadge my egnine.

US tanks cant fire at US tanks in realistic mode , like i said only talking about REALISTIC mode

50 cal is the best and only reliable MG to kill light vehicles, and its on the M18 lol

yeah 7mm guns do penetrate sometimes lol , 76mm gun on M18 penetrate everything fronataly and fires every 6 seconds good luck

lets not forget that firing MG's in REALISTIC mode is really stupid NEON light saying over here!

unless of course you want every M18 on your flanks and behind you to be firing at you or rushing straight towards you for another free kill lol

[Tremendous Moist, Lord of Wet]

The biggest problem is the speed. Sure, the hellcat has no armor but If you are betting on your armor to save you in warthunder in any tank, you haven't been playing warthunder properly. It gives the player the ability to attack from directions that you wouldn't expect, like from behind or up hills other tanks couldn't climb.

Honestly, the real problem is that the Hellcat is too 'good' in the sort of climate of wt rb and sb. Its excellent in all the things that give players the first shot capability in warthunder with a supposed 'no armor' drawback that don't mean anything when you are already reversing after you fired and wrecked my turret. Add that with an retarded rate of fire that can actually out reload everything in its br and you have a tank sized 76mm machine gun with superior ammo.

[Rumpelcrutchskin]

SilentSniper a écrit :

Rumpelcrutchskin a écrit :

All they need to do is more realistic response to APHE hit that would set off the HE in the warhead after penetration. I seriously doubt that much would be left of even ordinary truck after you shoot it few times with 76 mm APHE in reality.
This would give you at least fighting chance against those things.
Saying that you should carry HE or shrapnel extra for them leaves you with huge problem of running into actual real tank with HE or shrapnel loaded, most of the time that means caught with your pants down and certain death.
And if you have APHE in the barrel you wont usually have time to reload HE or shrapnel before you already have APHE round from TD through your ammo rack.
Machine guns only work if you drive american tank with 50 cal. and even those are not always effective.

20mm fuse sensitivity on the T-34-57's best APHE. Not only that 20mm fuse sensitivity but the front hull of the Hellcat being at 63 degrees and, if you look at the new angle penetration values they have given us, you would see the T-34-57's best APHE barely reaches 45mm's at point blank on 60 degrees. Much like a farther range on a 63 degree plate. If you're talking specifically about the 76mm? LOL! No wonder why you can't kill it, you aren't paying attention to what you can pen or where the hell you're shooting buddy. Assuming you're probably shooting at flat areas such as turret or the side with less than that, the fuse will not ignite nor will the HE set off. If you would like to argue Gaijin and their sources and go find true sources with reliable statistics from Russian data charts with tests on similar armor types and values the Hellcat used with these 63 degree angles then go ahead and give Gaijin and us those. Until then you can't call what YOU want more realistic. Did you serve in WW2? Didn't think so. Have you fired or seen a T-34-57 or other Russian APHE shells of that type fire? Didn't think so. Nothing but what Gaijin has as their sources is "realistic" in what you want.

I dont use T-34-57, it's garbage tank that gets wasted by pretty much anything of its bracket while doing only minimal damage back.

[Tremendous Moist, Lord of Wet]

not sure if troll or really uninformed. Hellcat was made in 1943. to fight tigers.

[Polarization]

damage model for m18 is fubar, me in t34-85 , found 2 camping spawn 200m away , first took 3 hits from 85mm APHE to turret and upper hull to kill, was still driving towards me and shooting after 2 hits.

second one took 2 hits then started driving towards me to flank, i rammed him, continued firing, it shows the crew and modules red but he can still drive and shoot.

2 of my 85mm shots bounce of turret mantlet at 90 degres point blank range!!!

he continues to move around me and then starts shooting back finally 3rd shot at turret after at least 3 before kills him.

see 3rd one racing towards spwan i hide shoot him in turret shows gunner and comander red and ammo and gun red. i continue to shoot again and again, he starts reversing in circles around a small rock - benny hill music has started.

i put at least 6 rounds of 85mm APHE into him keeps showing penetration and red crew and module damage but its still combat effective

then he stops and start firing back ?! i fire again, multible red modules and red crew, then it says hes been wrecked ?! no kill or assist his tank disaperas Alt +F4 ?

all this time another M18 is shooting at me and gets me after 2 hits

when iwas using M18 yesterday i got stuck on a trench, a KV 1 shot me so many times over 15 hits and i was still combat effective just black engine total crap

a tiger hit me twice with 88mm in the flank i drove away repaired for 30 secs drove back and shot him twice frontaly at 600m and finished him just stupid

Today I hit the font of an M18 wth the SU 152 with HE it made his turret go GREEN !!! lol he was still shooting back at me, kill cam showed all the sharpnel hitting the front of the M18 but it only made 1 optic damamge lol

M18 has much more survivability under penetrating fire then a heavy tank, totaly wrong

But that made it so sweet and satifying when i just got 3 M18 kills on poland with the SU152 across the lake at 600- 800 mtrs they had no idea what happend and then BOOM!!! lol feels so good

Now in realisitc its always German and russian v american lol

18 defeats in a row against all american teams in realistice battles this evening

[Alexandria38]

I see many people saying the M18 should have an increased BR. Pardon me if this was mentiond in the 3 pages I didn't read, but the M4A1 and M4A2 76(W) Shermans, which are superior in armor, are only .3 BR higher, and they have the same gun and reload speed as the Hellcat, with the exact same capabilities. The purpose of the Hellcat is to have a superior gun for inferior armor, and that is why it is lower than those 2 Shermans. If it were the same BR, the only reason to use it would be its speed.

If the M18 were upped in BR it would be either the same BR as the Shermans with the same gun and reload speed, or it would be higher than them and it wouldn't make sense. I think the real issue is the M10 Wolverine/Jackson which is 3.3 with the 5.0 M6A1's 76MM. The Hellcat, in my opinion, is fine where it is.

[Tremendous Moist, Lord of Wet]

It can at least take a ROF nerf. This thing eats everything it meets on a 1 on 1 fight. I can't even count of amount of times I had it roll up to me and out reload my gun after i hit his front and murdered his driver only.

The M8A1, which is a monster which i happily love, balances its lower br with a slower reload. I can't see why the Hellcat cannot, for the sake of balance.

Also, why the hell do you give it a 200++mm pen apcr rounds? There is literally nothing at its BR range that can stop that round.

Right now, my most driven tank is the panzer 4 J. It has a handcrank. At 4.7 br. I had fun fighting tigers and panther in my 76 shermans and M6A1, using a mix of both AP and the stock ammo to kill them. You know what they didnt get? a 200+++pen APCR round with the 5-6 second reload that is rofling everything he sees with no need to judge for armor weak spot whatsoever.

[Katokevin]

Cody38 a écrit :

I think the real issue is the M10 Wolverine/Jackson which is 3.3 with the 5.0 M6A1's 76MM. The Hellcat, in my opinion, is fine where it is.

Well, it does have a powerful gun, but comes at the disadvantage of a heavy, and manually cranked turret. This gives it the slowest rotation speed in the game at 3.8°/s. To compare, the Panther Ausf. D and KV-2 have a rotation speed of 5.1°/s. With the M10, it's more effective to just rotate the whole tank rather then the turret itself.

[Alexandria38]

Luftwaffles a écrit :

Cody38 a écrit :

I think the real issue is the M10 Wolverine/Jackson which is 3.3 with the 5.0 M6A1's 76MM. The Hellcat, in my opinion, is fine where it is.

Well, it does have a powerful gun, but comes at the disadvantage of a heavy, and manually cranked turret. This gives it the slowest rotation speed in the game at 3.8°/s. To compare, the Panther Ausf. D and KV-2 have a rotation speed of 5.1°/s. With the M10, it's more effective to just rotate the whole tank rather then the turret itself.

The turret rotation speed is increased to 5.8 after an upgrade, and if you drive it like a StuG or something, it still has a 76mm at 3.3. I do incredibly well in it because it one shots everything at that tier.

[Serpent90]

I don't know about arcade but in RB I just lost 3 games in a row to these things.
The OP thing is the speed, you've barely left your spawn and you already encounter ennemies.
Having a tank that can get fast to almost any position, jump around the corner and shoot your flank faster than you can say "surprise madafaka" is certified 100% pure BS. (I once got killed by an M18 coming from the direction of my spawn, about two minutes into the game)
I'd rather be fighting Pershings or Pattons than these things with my Tiger H1.
And there is no way to counter their manoeverability by using lighter vehicles since german medium tanks are only marginally faster than heavies.

[McDanger]

oh, a vehicle that was designed to be fast is moving to fast for me, WAAA WAAAAAA, I can't kill it, nerf it, WAAA WAAAAA

[VOLUME SHOOTER]

i think this is a thing of overused rather than being overpowered