T-34-85 and T-34-57 Mod 43 vs Tiger 1

[Caboose{CHANNNGE}]

Tiger shoots T-34-85 right under the turret, in the turret ring, bounces at 100m, less. T-34-85 proceeds to shoot the Tiger, through the strongest part of the armor, no weakspots, killing it instantly. T-34-57 Mod 43 gets shot through the side by Tiger, it survives, turns around, and pens the strongest part of the armor (3 inches to the right of the Drivers port) into the ammo rack, killing instantly. Keep in mind, both times, the Tiger was heavily, angled, 20-35 degrees, and it still happened. Mkay.

[Pookie Bear]

You expect what from Russian devs? Even their aircraft are far better than they ever were historically..........

And lets not mention the hackers, nothing like watching an I-153 get 14 kills and never die. Nope nothing to see here, move along, move along..........

[Spaddobird]

That is interesting, many players consider the first Tiger to be one of the best tanks in the game relative to its enemies. I personaly am able to achieve 4 -5 enemy tanks destroyed per game, usually surviving the game even when facing IS-2 and T-44. You may just need some practise.

The T-34 actually has excellent penetrative capabilities, both the T-34-57 and T-34-85(D-5T) are able to penetrate the Tiger frontaly at a shallow angle and the T-34-85 is capable of penetrating the tiger frontaly even at extreme angles.

This is working realisticaly, you can check the stat cards for yourself - The T-34-85 with BR 365P shells equipped has 176mm of penetration at a 100m distance, easily enough to go straight through the Tiger's frontal armor.

As for not being able to penetrate the T-34-85's turret ring, there are in fact certain agles at which the T-34-85's turret ring thickness can reach a depth of over 150mm, you may have just been unlucky.

Originally posted by Ash:

You expect what from Russian devs? Even their aircraft are far better than they ever were historically..........

And lets not mention the hackers, nothing like watching an I-153 get 14 kills and never die. Nope nothing to see here, move along, move along..........

As for Russian bias and hackers, neither exist. The Russian vehicles have their strengths and weaknesses, it is your job as the player to work these out.

Hacking this game is impossible, all the data is sent to and checked on the server.

[Caboose{CHANNNGE}]

While I agree the Tiger is the best German tank, I do also believe that Russian bias does exist, if not at that tier. For example, and the most obvious, if not over used, is that the Russians have Cold War vehicles, the IS-4, T-54, and even IS-3, are all post world war 2, while Germany is stuck in WW2, with at best prototype vehicles, which don't actually stand a chance. These are some reasons why I can not wait for America, it's hard to bias against Americans and get away with it without a lot of problems from the Murican playerbase. E8 in particular, can't wait :D.

[Tankfriend]

The Americans will have their own "bias", I'm sure. If it's not for 76mm-armed Shermans unrealistically low in the tech tree, it's at least going to be the M103 that will absolutely wipe out anything at the highest Tiers at long range with no other tank really able to compete...

[[STW] cavour]

I don't want to reopen usual diatribe about Russian's anti-tank guns ability to penetrate armor of Tiger, Panther etc etc ... but to define 85mm a cannon by high capacity because it can penetrate a Tiger from only 100m away, looks like a "little" disproportionate ...
88mm (Pak36 and even more Pak43) can penetrate a T-34/85 from a distance of 1200/1500m (front armor).
As for the game I agree, Russian units have wrongly overpowered.

[Tankfriend]

Originally posted by cavour_:

I don't want to reopen usual diatribe about Russian's anti-tank guns ability to penetrate armor of Tiger, Panther etc etc ... but to define 85mm a cannon by high capacity because it can penetrate a Tiger from only 100m away, looks like a "little" disproportionate ...

It depends on the ammunition type, but the T-34-85 can fight the Tiger frontally at 500m, already. Or even 1000m with APCR. Sounds capable enough.

[[STW] cavour]

http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html

[Tankfriend]

Originally posted by cavour_:

http://amizaur.prv.pl/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html

Citing your page:

ZiS–53, ZiS–S–53, F–39
D–5S, D–5T and
D–44 obr.1944

AP ammo: 110mm @ 0° angle at 500m; 95mm @ 0° angle at 1000m
APBC ammo: 111mm @ 0° angle at 500m; 102mm @ 0° angle at 1000m
APCR ammo: 140mm @ 0° angle at 500m; 110mm @ 0° angle at 1000m

The T-34-85 had the D-5T and ZIS-S-53 guns, so these are the values we're looking for.

Now, the Tiger has 100mm of armour at an angle of 81° at the hull front, which roughly translates into 101-102mm of armour at 0°.

In other words:
AP ammo can already penetrate the Tiger front at a bit over 500m.
APBC ammo can already penetrate the Tiger front at a little bit under 1000m.
APCR ammo can already penetrate the Tiger front at a bit over 1000m.

Of course the quality of the shells could mean that these values are too high for some, and maybe even too low for others, but without definitive data about that, there's nothing one can really do about it.

[Fury]

Originally posted by Spaddobird:

That is interesting, many players consider the first Tiger to be one of the best tanks in the game relative to its enemies. I personaly am able to achieve 4 -5 enemy tanks destroyed per game, usually surviving the game even when facing IS-2 and T-44. You may just need some practise.

The T-34 actually has excellent penetrative capabilities, both the T-34-57 and T-34-85(D-5T) are able to penetrate the Tiger frontaly at a shallow angle and the T-34-85 is capable of penetrating the tiger frontaly even at extreme angles.

This is working realisticaly, you can check the stat cards for yourself - The T-34-85 with BR 365P shells equipped has 176mm of penetration at a 100m distance, easily enough to go straight through the Tiger's frontal armor.

As for not being able to penetrate the T-34-85's turret ring, there are in fact certain agles at which the T-34-85's turret ring thickness can reach a depth of over 150mm, you may have just been unlucky.

Originally posted by Ash:

You expect what from Russian devs? Even their aircraft are far better than they ever were historically..........

And lets not mention the hackers, nothing like watching an I-153 get 14 kills and never die. Nope nothing to see here, move along, move along..........

As for Russian bias and hackers, neither exist. The Russian vehicles have their strengths and weaknesses, it is your job as the player to work these out.

Hacking this game is impossible, all the data is sent to and checked on the server.

I fly as russians and they have no weaknesses, they are op and the mods here and on war thunder ban you for saying different. The mods on this part of steam discussions are the worst.

Germans are second best in figher department.

[[STW] cavour]

You're right 80%.
The frontal armor of the Tiger was, it is true, 100mm but the inclination was 10 ° is not 81 ° (in this case would be invulnerable), consequently the total thickness found to be about 106 / 107mm, and this leads the 85mm (APBC / APCR) to the edge of its capabilities.
It should also be noted that the steel of the Tiger and Panther was enriched molybdenum, which made it particularly tough and slightly elastic.
A.P.C.R. Russian 85mm was quite light and therefore ballistic data should be reassessed.
Bullet fast and light is effective at short distance but to 1000m range it loses much of its kinetic energy.

[Tankfriend]

Originally posted by cavour_:

You're right 80%.
The frontal armor of the Tiger was, it is true, 100mm but the inclination was 10 ° is not 81 ° (in this case would be invulnerable)

There is actually two ways you can refer to armour angles.
1. Armour relative to the horizontal: In this case, a 0° angle means that the armour would be lying flat on the ground.

2. Armour relative to the vertical: In this case, a 0° angle means that the armour would be standing straight up from the ground.

As long as you use the correct formula to calculate effective armour for each of those cases, the end result is the same. So, all the 10° vs. 81° comes down to is a different method to look at the armour. Save for that extra 1° of angle you mentioned, the result is effectively the same.
As for that 1° degree extra, the difference in armour thickness is somewhere at 0.5mm, so practically negligible.

It should also be noted that the steel of the Tiger and Panther was enriched molybdenum, which made it particularly tough and slightly elastic.

Well, German armour quality is a topic for debate. It's usually said that late-war German armour was pretty bad quality because of a lack of the critical alloy materials. But, apparently, the issues go back much further, possibly even into the time before the war actually started.
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/02/06/on-german-armour/

As I said, it's a debateable topic, at best. But it does cast doubt on the famous German armour quality.

A.P.C.R. Russian 85mm was quite light and therefore ballistic data should be reassessed.
Bullet fast and light is effective at short distance but to 1000m range it loses much of its kinetic energy.

That might be, but we have nothing to reassess it with. If it still penetrates that much of armour at 1000m, it's all we have. What kind of damage the shell does after penetrating at that range is difficult to tell, but the important part is that it *can* still do damage. And that's the point where a Tiger crew realizing that (in real conditions, of course, not the game) might just decide on abandoning their vehicle rather than getting killed.

[Supreme Corgi]

Jingles did a video about the russian 85mm if you want a youtube video to dumb it down

[mong]

Meh. T-34-85 killed my Panther by shooting at the gun mantlet and ricocheting the shot into the hull and destroying the ammo rack.
You cannot beat that.

[Tankfriend]

Originally posted by Archibald Fooster:

Meh. T-34-85 killed my Panther by shooting at the gun mantlet and ricocheting the shot into the hull and destroying the ammo rack.
You cannot beat that.

It's actually a threat the Germans recognized in real-life. That's why the late models of the Panther had an extra vertical piece of armour added below the gun mantlet to prevent that from happeneing. Compare the Panthers D and A with the G in War Thunder, and you can see the difference. :)

[TaxFraudTodd]

The panther d is my favorite tank to destroy because of the driver hatch being the biggest weak point in the front.