SU-47 vs SU-57

[FizzyElf]

If Gaijin added one of the two next update/event, which would you be more worried about fighting and which would you prefer to be flying?

[VeeVee]

I mean the Su-47 never got it's weapons or avionics, so it wouldn't be very hard to fight.

[Toomski2000 - Recovery Guy]

It would all be down to the made up data that Gaijin decided on, as their is not a single chance, like many top tier vehicles and planes etc we have now, that they could access any of the real data on these very advanced types they release including weapons due to the secrecy and lack of real data out their. After all they cant even get the ARH missile mode correct for things like the AIM 120 AMRAAM.
It might seem somewhat harsh to accuse them of making up data for many units, but after being in the military for 15 years, with one of my duties as a Recognition Instructor for my Battalion, I can easily say when a new type unit was discovered whatever the nation even the military could take more than several years to eventually get a decent grasp on the capabilities etc.
For example the very first picture of the T-80 that was passed to us in the Recce Section was literally a 100mm by 80mm very grainy black and white photo, taken at about 75 metres from behind and the only way it was noticed as a new type was because of the wading kit on the back of the turret and the exhaust vent shape at the rear of the hull. So fast forward many years and apply that for example to the SU-57 etc.

[Eftwyrd]

Originally posted by VeeVee:

I mean the Su-47 never got it's weapons or avionics, so it wouldn't be very hard to fight.

that is effectively meaningless, just look at the yak141, they gave it avionics and weapons it probably would have got but were never actually equipped on the prototype

As to the main question, as much as armchair experts like to ♥♥♥♥ on the su57 as ‘not as good as the raptor’ it’s still notionally a 5th gen fighter regardless of its flaws. So not being as good as the best in the world is not synonymous with bad, it’s a very high bar it is being measured against

All the su47 really brings to the table over the flanker is manoeuvrability

[dan]

But there's already an SU-57 in-game!

[jaxjace]

Originally posted by Eftwyrd:

Originally posted by VeeVee:

I mean the Su-47 never got it's weapons or avionics, so it wouldn't be very hard to fight.

that is effectively meaningless, just look at the yak141, they gave it avionics and weapons it probably would have got but were never actually equipped on the prototype

As to the main question, as much as armchair experts like to ♥♥♥♥ on the su57 as ‘not as good as the raptor’ it’s still notionally a 5th gen fighter regardless of its flaws. So not being as good as the best in the world is not synonymous with bad, it’s a very high bar it is being measured against

All the su47 really brings to the table over the flanker is manoeuvrability

Which is already something the flanker does better than most jets but is till moot in the age when speed and radar is everything and dogfights are nigh on obsolete. That being said I would LOVE the su47 as a squadron or event vehicle, inverted swept wings are sooooooooo cooooool.

[Spungy bob]

Originally posted by jaxjace:

Originally posted by Eftwyrd:

that is effectively meaningless, just look at the yak141, they gave it avionics and weapons it probably would have got but were never actually equipped on the prototype

As to the main question, as much as armchair experts like to ♥♥♥♥ on the su57 as ‘not as good as the raptor’ it’s still notionally a 5th gen fighter regardless of its flaws. So not being as good as the best in the world is not synonymous with bad, it’s a very high bar it is being measured against

All the su47 really brings to the table over the flanker is manoeuvrability

Which is already something the flanker does better than most jets but is till moot in the age when speed and radar is everything and dogfights are nigh on obsolete. That being said I would LOVE the su47 as a squadron or event vehicle, inverted swept wings are sooooooooo cooooool.

I beg to differ on dogfights becoming obsolete. That's what the US thought in Vietnam, hence why the first Phantoms lacked internal guns. They learned really quickly and put internal guns back in. It won't be as prevalent as it was from WW1 to Korea, but won't go away completely

[BLAZE]

Originally posted by HottestKnees:

Originally posted by jaxjace:

Which is already something the flanker does better than most jets but is till moot in the age when speed and radar is everything and dogfights are nigh on obsolete. That being said I would LOVE the su47 as a squadron or event vehicle, inverted swept wings are sooooooooo cooooool.

I beg to differ on dogfights becoming obsolete. That's what the US thought in Vietnam, hence why the first Phantoms lacked internal guns. They learned really quickly and put internal guns back in. It won't be as prevalent as it was from WW1 to Korea, but won't go away completely

Missiles are obsolete you fight now at ranges of 30 - 50 km, times changes. Will you say knifes and bayonetts are also not obsolete?

[Eftwyrd]

Originally posted by HottestKnees:

Originally posted by jaxjace:

Which is already something the flanker does better than most jets but is till moot in the age when speed and radar is everything and dogfights are nigh on obsolete. That being said I would LOVE the su47 as a squadron or event vehicle, inverted swept wings are sooooooooo cooooool.

I beg to differ on dogfights becoming obsolete. That's what the US thought in Vietnam, hence why the first Phantoms lacked internal guns. They learned really quickly and put internal guns back in. It won't be as prevalent as it was from WW1 to Korea, but won't go away completely

the sparrows they used in Vietnam were unreliable at best and nothing compared to the aim120 today

Nevermind the extremely obsolete rules of engagement in Vietnam which still required pilots to visually identify their targets before engaging, something of a problem when you are supposed to be relying on your ‘superior’ missiles against smaller and more manoeuvrable enemies

Using it as any kind of example for todays capabilities is misguided

[jaxjace]

Originally posted by Eftwyrd:

Originally posted by HottestKnees:

I beg to differ on dogfights becoming obsolete. That's what the US thought in Vietnam, hence why the first Phantoms lacked internal guns. They learned really quickly and put internal guns back in. It won't be as prevalent as it was from WW1 to Korea, but won't go away completely

the sparrows they used in Vietnam were unreliable at best and nothing compared to the aim120 today

Nevermind the extremely obsolete rules of engagement in Vietnam which still required pilots to visually identify their targets before engaging, something of a problem when you are supposed to be relying on your ‘superior’ missiles against smaller and more manoeuvrable enemies

Using it as any kind of example for todays capabilities is misguided

Well beyond that I was talking about warthunder at top tier where dogfights are objectively not a thing 99.9% of the time. Real life is even more so, the last dogfight was many decades ago and the ranges of modern IRL missiles are so much greater and the missiles themselves are so much more hyper lethal.

[Maki Nishikino]

Originally posted by jaxjace:

Well beyond that I was talking about warthunder at top tier where dogfights are objectively not a thing 99.9% of the time.

Huh? Playing top tier right now and there is plenty of dogfighting.

[FizzyElf]

Originally posted by Maki Nishikino:

Originally posted by jaxjace:

Well beyond that I was talking about warthunder at top tier where dogfights are objectively not a thing 99.9% of the time.

Huh? Playing top tier right now and there is plenty of dogfighting.

Not if you are a player who dies to a long range missile 2 minutes into the match, you have to actually survive long enough in a decent number of matches to see how often matches have dogfights in them.

[jaxjace]

Originally posted by FizzyElf:

Originally posted by Maki Nishikino:

Huh? Playing top tier right now and there is plenty of dogfighting.

Not if you are a player who dies to a long range missile 2 minutes into the match, you have to actually survive long enough in a decent number of matches to see how often matches have dogfights in them.

Nah I just spamram at altitude and go back to reload over and over till they are all dead, works most of the time.

[Labdog]

Su-57 because it actually made it into air force service. Hot take: the Su-47 is hideous.

[QUANTUM MECHANICS c000021a]

F-22 and F-35

[Toomski2000 - Recovery Guy]

To add to the discussion here we have to remember that the top tier aircraft in war thunder dont have the top missiles they should be using, for example Python 4 + 5, the AIM-9x, and the chinese PL10 to name just a few, but instead many top aircraft get for example AIM-9L, AIM-9M etc etc, missiles in same cases two generations older than the aircraft they are going on. As for dogfighting it still happens in this modern era - just ask the Isrealis.