F4S vs Mig23ML at 20k feet is biggest mismatch ever

[Thumper509]

Recently I've been switching back and forth between these two fighters to try something. Go up to 20k feet, and see how many kills I can get up there with the fox 1 missiles. The results are not even close. Not even a debate. If I go up there with the Mig-23ML (Which doesn't even have the best radar in the Mig-23 family) is almost guaranteed 2 kills as long as you have enemies up there with you. I 2 v 1'd another Mig 23 and a F4S phantom by myself. If you launch an R-24R going Mach 1.3 almost the breaking point of the Mig-23 at a range of 10 miles or less its going to kill the target 98% of the time chaff or not. My radar has kept ahold of chaff lock only to watch the target explode into a fireball.

Now if I do this same thing in the F4S which is supposedly a better aircraft all around, the results have been less than flattering. At only a BR of .3 higher the Phantom is arguably much worse at this tactic. If you get a lock on an enemy coming at you same altitude you can maintain lock, get a strong lock with the Aim-7 at 14 miles lets say. You fire. If that enemy even chaffs once or a mouse fart happens the radar loses lock, your missile detonates, and you are back at square one with an enemy on your nose and it kills you.

How in gods name is an Mig-23ML outperforming this Phantom where the F-4 is supposedly at a big advantage? I don't understand this at all. The Sparrow is supposed to be a much better missile than the R-24R but its not. Not even remotely close.

[Thumper509]

Originally posted by Apophes:

Originally posted by ikstarven:

typical russian bias, dont overthink it, their all knowing source definitely knows why the phantom is worse than mig23

i remember that cryfest with r-73 and 77 until gaijin nerfed them. pathetic

I haven't unlocked the Su-27SM yet (Working on that now) so I have no experience with the R-77 but having the Su-33 my experience with the R-73 has been mixed bag. I either take what should be a stupidly impossible snap shot from the hip that miraculously hits or I go 0/4 on solid IRCCM locked opponents from behind and above. No in between. I'm usually dead at that BR before the fight even gets into R-73 range due to my poor tactics and still learning what to do at top tier

[Apophes]

Originally posted by Thumper509:

Originally posted by Apophes:

i remember that cryfest with r-73 and 77 until gaijin nerfed them. pathetic

I haven't unlocked the Su-27SM yet (Working on that now) so I have no experience with the R-77 but having the Su-33 my experience with the R-73 has been mixed bag. I either take what should be a stupidly impossible snap shot from the hip that miraculously hits or I go 0/4 on solid IRCCM locked opponents from behind and above. No in between. I'm usually dead at that BR before the fight even gets into R-73 range due to my poor tactics and still learning what to do at top tier

They need better fly model and fix missles. If i remember someone even compared top tier Russian air fly model with flying wing and if im correct r 73 or 77 or both have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of drag. There is no point to be exited with new russian planes (which position themselves as maneuverable) because of this ♥♥♥♥. I swear

Im sure when gaijin adds f-22-35 and su57. su 57 would be bad simply because plane will fly will have worse flight model

[APhone]

Cool story m8.

[Thumper509]

Originally posted by APhone:

Cool story m8.

thank you

[French Cat]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!

So they use different kinds of radars and their missiles use different kinds of radars too. I believe the MIG-23 has the radar on “Continuous pulse” or something like that while the F-4S is one something different. Do the same test with the F-4E instead and it’ll act like the MiG-23 because its radar is also continuous pulse. So it basically means that you can lose lock sure, but as long as your radar (AKA your tip of the nose) is pointed at the enemy, it’ll still track the enemy. It’s much more complicated and junk, there’s detailed explanations on YouTube, but they are the better at high altitudes. Now the F-4S is great at low altitude, because it uses pulse Doppler and yada yada no ground clutter. So they’re meant to operate at different places in War Thunder.

[Chad Chungus]

Originally posted by Thumper509:

Originally posted by Chad Chungus:

typical private profile type of post

yeah bro, youre just not good

I just had a match where I told the enemy in chat exactly what it was I was going to do and the enemy still couldn't stop me from getting two kills using the exact method. Both my kills? F-4 Phantoms. Chew on that for a second.

chew on you killing clueless premium players? lol

[BlackWolf9988]

idk i own both and honestly the F-4S is just brainless player farming. the jet is so easy to play.

[Thumper509]

Originally posted by French Cat:

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!

So they use different kinds of radars and their missiles use different kinds of radars too. I believe the MIG-23 has the radar on “Continuous pulse” or something like that while the F-4S is one something different. Do the same test with the F-4E instead and it’ll act like the MiG-23 because its radar is also continuous pulse. So it basically means that you can lose lock sure, but as long as your radar (AKA your tip of the nose) is pointed at the enemy, it’ll still track the enemy. It’s much more complicated and junk, there’s detailed explanations on YouTube, but they are the better at high altitudes. Now the F-4S is great at low altitude, because it uses pulse Doppler and yada yada no ground clutter. So they’re meant to operate at different places in War Thunder.

Brother I appreciate this answer a lot. I did not know that information. I will give the F-4E a try. Thank you for this info. Its huge for me. I love the F-4 Phantom but I have been having such a rough time with it adapting it to my play style (High altitude intercept) this helps me a great deal

[Thumper509]

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

idk i own both and honestly the F-4S is just brainless player farming. the jet is so easy to play.

I just need to learn how to use it thats all. Its tough for me for whatever reason.

[Jaes]

Originally posted by French Cat:

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!

So they use different kinds of radars and their missiles use different kinds of radars too. I believe the MIG-23 has the radar on “Continuous pulse” or something like that while the F-4S is one something different. Do the same test with the F-4E instead and it’ll act like the MiG-23 because its radar is also continuous pulse. So it basically means that you can lose lock sure, but as long as your radar (AKA your tip of the nose) is pointed at the enemy, it’ll still track the enemy. It’s much more complicated and junk, there’s detailed explanations on YouTube, but they are the better at high altitudes. Now the F-4S is great at low altitude, because it uses pulse Doppler and yada yada no ground clutter. So they’re meant to operate at different places in War Thunder.

No.

What you mean is "Continuous Wave" radar, which is literally every radar system you see in the game and how your radar system is able to get tracking data on targets and successfully guide something like an AIM-7 and R-24 against a target. All iterations of the AIM-7 from the AIM-7D onward use the exact same guidance principles as far as Gaijin is concerned.

You're probably confusing Conical Scanning with Inverse Monopulse scanning. Gaijin does not model these differences currently. They may in the future, but I doubt it's a huge priority. If they ever did, Multi-pathing would be a virtually useless technique against Skyflash, AIM-7Ms, most ARHs etc.

The primary thing that separates the R-24R and the AIM-7 is what radar modes are available from their launch aircraft, and the fact that R-24R has a limited In Ordnance Guidance capability to make for having a notoriously unreliable radar to make up for low kill probabilities. It's why the R-24 is so big compared to a Sparrow among other things.

OP's experience with using the F-4S is wildly different from mine and I have no issues with engaging aircraft in full uptiers at 6000m up to 15-20km away with high kill probabilities. MiG-23s are usually my favorite targets because I can engage them from double the effective range of an R-24R. I can only conclude they're making shots that aren't as good as they believe they are, or not using the right radar mode for their engagements.

With the upcoming update, Continuous Wave radar systems are going to get a huge buff to the point you're going to be forced to Notch or die if you get fired on and continue heading towards your attacker's radar, even if you're not using Pulse Doppler modes.

[French Cat]

Originally posted by Jaes:

Originally posted by French Cat:

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!

So they use different kinds of radars and their missiles use different kinds of radars too. I believe the MIG-23 has the radar on “Continuous pulse” or something like that while the F-4S is one something different. Do the same test with the F-4E instead and it’ll act like the MiG-23 because its radar is also continuous pulse. So it basically means that you can lose lock sure, but as long as your radar (AKA your tip of the nose) is pointed at the enemy, it’ll still track the enemy. It’s much more complicated and junk, there’s detailed explanations on YouTube, but they are the better at high altitudes. Now the F-4S is great at low altitude, because it uses pulse Doppler and yada yada no ground clutter. So they’re meant to operate at different places in War Thunder.

No.

What you mean is "Continuous Wave" radar, which is literally every radar system you see in the game and how your radar system is able to get tracking data on targets and successfully guide something like an AIM-7 and R-24 against a target. All iterations of the AIM-7 from the AIM-7D onward use the exact same guidance principles as far as Gaijin is concerned.

You're probably confusing Conical Scanning with Inverse Monopulse scanning. Gaijin does not model these differences currently. They may in the future, but I doubt it's a huge priority. If they ever did, Multi-pathing would be a virtually useless technique against Skyflash, AIM-7Ms, most ARHs etc.

The primary thing that separates the R-24R and the AIM-7 is what radar modes are available from their launch aircraft, and the fact that R-24R has a limited In Ordnance Guidance capability to make for having a notoriously unreliable radar to make up for low kill probabilities. It's why the R-24 is so big compared to a Sparrow among other things.

OP's experience with using the F-4S is wildly different from mine and I have no issues with engaging aircraft in full uptiers at 6000m up to 15-20km away with high kill probabilities. MiG-23s are usually my favorite targets because I can engage them from double the effective range of an R-24R. I can only conclude they're making shots that aren't as good as they believe they are, or not using the right radar mode for their engagements.

With the upcoming update, Continuous Wave radar systems are going to get a huge buff to the point you're going to be forced to Notch or die if you get fired on and continue heading towards your attacker's radar, even if you're not using Pulse Doppler modes.

Well I’m technically not wrong cus they still act exactly how I described it

[✿Sqüirrel✿]

I both hope you continue to do this in your 23ml, and others try to copy you. Will be the easiest farm for my f4s I have had in awhile. Thank you in advance for the free kills on all of you. Also, in a single post you have said you are both new to top tier, and then add in you don't have a skill issue...lol. The f4s will not lose that fight with two competent players, unless it devolves into a dogfight (competent players don't die to missiles really) and then the mig-23 will eventually get behind and kill the f4s. But in missile combat, it isn't a contest for the f4s.

[Thumper509]

Originally posted by ✿Sqüirrel✿:

I both hope you continue to do this in your 23ml, and others try to copy you. Will be the easiest farm for my f4s I have had in awhile. Thank you in advance for the free kills on all of you. Also, in a single post you have said you are both new to top tier, and then add in you don't have a skill issue...lol. The f4s will not lose that fight with two competent players, unless it devolves into a dogfight (competent players don't die to missiles really) and then the mig-23 will eventually get behind and kill the f4s. But in missile combat, it isn't a contest for the f4s.

Speaking from my experience, I have easily suppressed and destroyed F4S anywhere above 15k feet and its easy. Pre chaffing it will blind it all the way up until I bury the R-24R into your cockpit. I grinded the Su-27SM in one day today using this tactic and I farmed more Phantoms than any other plane. I'm definitely new to top tier but flying the Mig23ML at high altitude with radar missiles doesn't take skill its an easy 2 kills with the tactics I've been using.

The F4S I have a skill issue with for sure. I can't do nearly as well in it for some reason