Need help on APHE vs AP report WW2

[Sean Percy Newberry]

I have been reading that there was a british post war study done after ww2 about the effects of APHE and AP. APHE especially german ones were not fuzing and acting like solid shot same with british aphe shells tested. Does anyone have a source to the actual document, or a name. Thank you

[A Velociraptor]

I don't have the document but I think the study done showed little extra damage done by APHE compared to solid AP. This is due to how APHE functions in real life, creating a cone of shrapnel in the path of the shell. This is opposite to how APHE functions in game where it makes a sphere of deadly shrapnel that kills everything in the tank regardless of the path the shell was travelling.

[FizzyElf]

Originally posted by A Velociraptor:

I don't have the document but I think the study done showed little extra damage done by APHE compared to solid AP. This is due to how APHE functions in real life, creating a cone of shrapnel in the path of the shell. This is opposite to how APHE functions in game where it makes a sphere of deadly shrapnel that kills everything in the tank regardless of the path the shell was travelling.

The APHE works more closely to what is intended than the test showed in real life, in game we get a sphere, in real life it would, at least in theory, be a more bell or pear shaped and in the tests it produced essentially a fatter AP spall cone which is something we sort of see in cases where our APHE rounds hit incredibly light targets and the APHE produces a slightly nicer amount of damage compared to a pure AP round but its practically pointless in that situation as you need HE for those targets to achieve anything meaningful.

As for the tests themselves, I have no clue where they are on the internet, the tank museum probably has seen them and maybe did a video on APHE vs AP tests somewhere.

I know Britain did testing with the 2 and 6 pdr to see if APHE would be a good idea but they ran into a problem with fuse timing's and having the right balance of HE filler, penetration, weight and ease of production. HE filler was nice to have when it worked as it basically ensured whoever survived the spall was going to be in pretty awful shape and possibly wishing the spall killed them but it wasn't consistent like it is in war thunder, and that held true for the APHE rounds everyone was making, too early and the shell explodes in the middle of the plate, too late and the shell might be smacking into or pushing through the plate on the opposite side of the vehicle, there is a split second Goldilocks zone where the shell is hanging in the open air of the crew compartment where you want that shell to go boom and if your fuse is wrong or flat out not working on that specific round then it won't do that. Where as in war thunder we really don't have that problem unless volumetric screws with it. The brits decided to hell with it, our way is easier and less head ache inducing and nicer in terms of production so we'll go pure AP, that served them okay, they suffered a bit against lighter targets and had a hell of a time against gun emplacements and fortifications compared to a sherman or a tiger but artillery crews are always happy to have targets so while it did cause some deaths in the long run especially in north africa as if I remember correctly they didn't supply HE or enough HE to the tank crews dealing with infantry and AT gun positions but things still worked out in the end. Though in war thunder this does mean Brits went from using fairly efficient shells in real life to using fairly ineffective shells in game which is a little annoying for anyone trying to grind through the british tree, especially when they are new players and don't know the internal layouts of enemy tanks yet and so can't properly fight them.

[Kay]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here yet that is really important to understand the choice for the UK to use solid AP instead of APHE rounds is what's known as the shatter gap.

Higher velocity rounds, upon contact with hardened armour, would potentially break up and fail to penetrate, even if they're rated for higher penetration than the plate thickness.

This was particularly bad for APHE rounds. Since they had a cavity in the round for explosive filler and the fuze, they were structurally weaker than solid AP rounds.

This was also the reason for the usage of AP caps, they're a softer metal than the target's armour so they help reduce shock loads on impact, reducing the shatter gap (and improving performance against face hardened armour)

I think some information you may be looking for is in WW2 ballistics arms and armor (a collation of documents on tank armaments from the time) but can't say for sure, as I no longer own a copy.

Upon further research, the tests were done with a 2pdr gun initially, and should be in one of the 1940s ordnance reports, though I'm having trouble finding it online, honestly it may take a trip to an archive that has the document in question.

Edit: it appears the original document may be in the national archives in Kew, good luck in your search