wiesel 1a2 inaccuracies

[BlackWolf9988]

somebody correct me if im wrong but as far as i can tell the wiesel 1a2 is NOT remote controlled meaning the gunner has to go out of his hatch and shoot the TOW manually. during a reload the commander also has to go out of his hatch and help reload the TOW.

another small thing which according to the documentary about it is wrong is that it has 7 TOWs in total not 8 we have ingame.

https://youtu.be/2EpgqOWqh_k?si=p0SDOItyLKu6hee7&t=1511
25:11 you can see how they would shoot it IRL.

surely people who are very loud about having more realism for certain nations would agree they should change the wiesel in a more realistic way even if it means a nerf. right?

[Pec]

Thats the case for more or less all atgms you have to consider that the vehicle is a 2 person vehicle so it would be a huge nerf to as any machine gun could instantly kill it. As for the additional tow thats likely the one in the launcher so while it technically has capacity for 7 there isnt anything stopping you from putting one in the tube before you head out though you wouldn't want to have it loaded irl for safety .

[BlackWolf9988]

Originally posted by Pec:

Thats the case for more or less all atgms you have to consider that the vehicle is a 2 person vehicle so it would be a huge nerf to as any machine gun could instantly kill it. As for the additional tow thats likely the one in the launcher so while it technically has capacity for 7 there isnt anything stopping you from putting one in the tube before you head out though you wouldn't want to have it loaded irl for safety .

thats the wiesel 1a4 (the 20 mm version) that has 2 people in it, the wiesel 1a2 has a crew of 3 people in it.

at 24:20 in the video he specifically says in german "it can carry 5 in the vehicle, 1 in the back and 1 in the launcher."

for your argument that its a nerf, yeah i agree but we already have ATGM vics like the M113A1 TOW which has an exposed gunner and with how little armor the wiesel already got it wouldnt really change much in gameplay.

so again tell me again why the wiesel shouldnt get a realistic change when half of the community crys about stuff being unrealistic while ignoring stuff like the wiesel which is also unrealistic.

[Dogola]

Do you have some secret documents to back up these wild claims?

[Legatas]

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

Originally posted by Pec:

Thats the case for more or less all atgms you have to consider that the vehicle is a 2 person vehicle so it would be a huge nerf to as any machine gun could instantly kill it. As for the additional tow thats likely the one in the launcher so while it technically has capacity for 7 there isnt anything stopping you from putting one in the tube before you head out though you wouldn't want to have it loaded irl for safety .

thats the wiesel 1a4 (the 20 mm version) that has 2 people in it, the wiesel 1a2 has a crew of 3 people in it.

at 24:20 in the video he specifically says in german "it can carry 5 in the vehicle, 1 in the back and 1 in the launcher."

for your argument that its a nerf, yeah i agree but we already have ATGM vics like the M113A1 TOW which has an exposed gunner and with how little armor the wiesel already got it wouldnt really change much in gameplay.

so again tell me again why the wiesel shouldnt get a realistic change when half of the community crys about stuff being unrealistic while ignoring stuff like the wiesel which is also unrealistic.

Sometime ago some MOD commented that Wiesel doesnt have crew maning the TOW because there is no post WWII uniforms for the crew... So maybe when the updated crew models comes we will get the wiesel crew on the outside :)

[BlackWolf9988]

Originally posted by Dogola:

Do you have some secret documents to back up these wild claims?

the video above lol, its literally a public german documantary about the wiesel.

[BlackWolf9988]

Originally posted by Legatas:

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

thats the wiesel 1a4 (the 20 mm version) that has 2 people in it, the wiesel 1a2 has a crew of 3 people in it.

at 24:20 in the video he specifically says in german "it can carry 5 in the vehicle, 1 in the back and 1 in the launcher."

for your argument that its a nerf, yeah i agree but we already have ATGM vics like the M113A1 TOW which has an exposed gunner and with how little armor the wiesel already got it wouldnt really change much in gameplay.

so again tell me again why the wiesel shouldnt get a realistic change when half of the community crys about stuff being unrealistic while ignoring stuff like the wiesel which is also unrealistic.

Sometime ago some MOD commented that Wiesel doesnt have crew maning the TOW because there is no post WWII uniforms for the crew... So maybe when the updated crew models comes we will get the wiesel crew on the outside :)

fair enough, kinda a shame though since the vic has been out for what 2 - 3 years now.

[AttackerCat]

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

surely people who are very loud about having more realism for certain nations would agree they should change the wiesel in a more realistic way even if it means a nerf. right?

At the end of the day WT is a game. Some things are feasible in a game setting and others are not, especially within current game engine builds and possibilities.
No vehicle has the option to open a commander hatch and have the commander come out and man a weapon. For examples:
The M50 Ontos cannot be reloaded without the crew exiting the vehicle, grabbing stowed ammo from underneath the stowage at the rear of the tank, and standing outside the vehicle to manually reload each gun.
The SturmTiger could not reload without a crew member getting out of the back hatch, winching the loading crane over the roof hatch, opening the hatch, and loading a projectile into the loading rack and breach.
The Frnech dual-six-round autoloaders could not be reloaded without exiting the tank, taking several minutes to do so and leaving crew exposed. This is the weapons system mounted on the AMX-13, M4A1 FL10, and EBR 1954.
M4s would not be able to fire their commander MGs without a crew member sitting exposed on the engine deck of the tank manning the gun.
Same as above for M10s, Achilles, M24s, and many other tanks.

TL;DR - WT is a vehicle combat game, not an IRL tank simulator. One person in WT controls the entire tank. We have mouse aim, weapons that don't model reliability or malfunctions, no fuel usage for tanks, fighting battles in imaginary places. So yes, the commander in the Wiesel doesn't stand to fire the ATGM.

Edit: to point out, and maybe it's just me working through spading vehicles, it is inconsistent. Look at the M113 TOW for China. The gunner is standing to fire that launcher, I can't tell you how exposed he is to a slight breeze let alone arty, strafing, or tank coax MGs. I'd go so far as to say that's probably the weakest aspect of the vehicle. I'd see more promise in a suggestion to have the lil guy hunker down inside the tank versus making other vehicles nuke their own crew by exposing them to the outside.
Related: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/m664hc/the_m113a1_tow_experience/

[BlackWolf9988]

Originally posted by AttackerCat:

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

surely people who are very loud about having more realism for certain nations would agree they should change the wiesel in a more realistic way even if it means a nerf. right?

At the end of the day WT is a game. Some things are feasible in a game setting and others are not, especially within current game engine builds and possibilities.
No vehicle has the option to open a commander hatch and have the commander come out and man a weapon. For examples:
The M50 Ontos cannot be reloaded without the crew exiting the vehicle, grabbing stowed ammo from underneath the stowage at the rear of the tank, and standing outside the vehicle to manually reload each gun.
The SturmTiger could not reload without a crew member getting out of the back hatch, winching the loading crane over the roof hatch, opening the hatch, and loading a projectile into the loading rack and breach.
The Frnech dual-six-round autoloaders could not be reloaded without exiting the tank, taking several minutes to do so and leaving crew exposed. This is the weapons system mounted on the AMX-13, M4A1 FL10, and EBR 1954.
M4s would not be able to fire their commander MGs without a crew member sitting exposed on the engine deck of the tank manning the gun.
Same as above for M10s, Achilles, M24s, and many other tanks.

TL;DR - WT is a vehicle combat game, not an IRL tank simulator. One person in WT controls the entire tank. We have mouse aim, weapons that don't model reliability or malfunctions, no fuel usage for tanks, fighting battles in imaginary places. So yes, the commander in the Wiesel doesn't stand to fire the ATGM.

i just find the consistency a bit weird. why does the M113A1 TOW get an exposed gunner but the wiesel which is arguably the best or one of the best ATGM vics in the game get away without having an exposed gunner while having a small profile and insane gun depression.

if it would drastically lower the performance of the vic ingame which i personally doubt there is always the solution of slightly lowering its BR.

[AttackerCat]

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

i just find the consistency a bit weird. why does the M113A1 TOW get an exposed gunner but the wiesel which is arguably the best or one of the best ATGM vics in the game get away without having an exposed gunner while having a small profile and insane gun depression.

if it would drastically lower the performance of the vic ingame which i personally doubt there is always the solution of slightly lowering its BR.

I see your point, personally I wouldn't mind if the M113 had the gunner inside and got the armor protection. Sure the launcher would be the only thing visible in a good hull-down position, but with the lack of depression on it, it would still be a lukewarm vehicle to play. As it stands right now it is painful. Could make a nice suggestion though.

Sweden I believe has an ATGM carrier that is in the same situation. Though both the Swedish ones and the M113 are years older than the Wiesel, could just be time to update them if the decision was made to change the way they were implemented.

[Pec]

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

Originally posted by Pec:

Thats the case for more or less all atgms you have to consider that the vehicle is a 2 person vehicle so it would be a huge nerf to as any machine gun could instantly kill it. As for the additional tow thats likely the one in the launcher so while it technically has capacity for 7 there isnt anything stopping you from putting one in the tube before you head out though you wouldn't want to have it loaded irl for safety .

thats the wiesel 1a4 (the 20 mm version) that has 2 people in it, the wiesel 1a2 has a crew of 3 people in it.

at 24:20 in the video he specifically says in german "it can carry 5 in the vehicle, 1 in the back and 1 in the launcher."

for your argument that its a nerf, yeah i agree but we already have ATGM vics like the M113A1 TOW which has an exposed gunner and with how little armor the wiesel already got it wouldnt really change much in gameplay.

so again tell me again why the wiesel shouldnt get a realistic change when half of the community crys about stuff being unrealistic while ignoring stuff like the wiesel which is also unrealistic.

That doesn't just apply to the wiesel the vast majority of atgm launchers also fall into that category eg the marder,warrior,bmp and many many others hell there are only a handful of vehicles with remote control machine guns so where do you want to draw the line. Currently the vehicles that have exposed launcher crew are ones that physically don't have an alternative normal position in the hull

[biomike]

Originally posted by AttackerCat:

Originally posted by BlackWolf9988:

surely people who are very loud about having more realism for certain nations would agree they should change the wiesel in a more realistic way even if it means a nerf. right?

At the end of the day WT is a game. Some things are feasible in a game setting and others are not, especially within current game engine builds and possibilities.
No vehicle has the option to open a commander hatch and have the commander come out and man a weapon. For examples:
The M50 Ontos cannot be reloaded without the crew exiting the vehicle, grabbing stowed ammo from underneath the stowage at the rear of the tank, and standing outside the vehicle to manually reload each gun.
The SturmTiger could not reload without a crew member getting out of the back hatch, winching the loading crane over the roof hatch, opening the hatch, and loading a projectile into the loading rack and breach.
The Frnech dual-six-round autoloaders could not be reloaded without exiting the tank, taking several minutes to do so and leaving crew exposed. This is the weapons system mounted on the AMX-13, M4A1 FL10, and EBR 1954.
M4s would not be able to fire their commander MGs without a crew member sitting exposed on the engine deck of the tank manning the gun.
Same as above for M10s, Achilles, M24s, and many other tanks.

TL;DR - WT is a vehicle combat game, not an IRL tank simulator. One person in WT controls the entire tank. We have mouse aim, weapons that don't model reliability or malfunctions, no fuel usage for tanks, fighting battles in imaginary places. So yes, the commander in the Wiesel doesn't stand to fire the ATGM.

Edit: to point out, and maybe it's just me working through spading vehicles, it is inconsistent. Look at the M113 TOW for China. The gunner is standing to fire that launcher, I can't tell you how exposed he is to a slight breeze let alone arty, strafing, or tank coax MGs. I'd go so far as to say that's probably the weakest aspect of the vehicle. I'd see more promise in a suggestion to have the lil guy hunker down inside the tank versus making other vehicles nuke their own crew by exposing them to the outside.
Related: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/m664hc/the_m113a1_tow_experience/

Actually for the strumtiger the crew didnt need to open up the tank to load the gun as it has an internal lift for the rounds
The loading crane is for loading new rounds into the tank from the outside, not for loading rounds into the gun

[AttackerCat]

Originally posted by biomike:

Actually for the strumtiger the crew didnt need to open up the tank to load the gun as it has an internal lift for the rounds
The loading crane is for loading new rounds into the tank from the outside, not for loading rounds into the gun

Ah, makes sense, I hadn't seen footage of the reload, but seeing illustrations of it loading ammo from accompanying tractors that seems better. Thanks!