Uptiers and why they are stupid.

[Fast]

THink about if they did this in LITERALLY ANY OTHER GAME.

Lets pit you with weaker gear against players with better gear as a standard in x FPS and wow all of a sudden its the most stupid design in history. The only other place this is accepted is P2W mobile games and P2W MMOS.

Uptiers exist solely to make the game feel worse so you give money.

"WAAAH WAHH ITS ONLY 4 TANKS ON EACH SIDE THAT ARE FULL UPTIERS," average WT andy brain.

what does it matterr if you are 5.0 it means still means the rest of the players can be at 5.7 or 5.3 you are still fighting an uneven playing field for the sole purpose of causing frustration.

Whats the solution? Reduce uptiers to a maximum of .7 or .3. Why? Because this in most circumstances achieves mild semblance of balance that is currently impossible with an entire 1.0 uptier.

Why they wont do it? Cause money.

Uptiers never really feell fun or rewarding it relegates players to sitting around behind those luckier players who ended up in the middle or at the full uptier most of the time. Sure there are exceptions but my god its boring af.

The entire reason uptiers exist is to make it feel worse to play so people spend money to skip those parts. Thats it. There is no obscure reasoning for player counts or some made up strategy to keep queues shorters. Its an inconvenience added so you can pay to remove it or reduce it. The end.

[Druckform | INSOMNIAC 3D]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Piggy INSOMNIAC 3D:

there is zero reason not to put BR spread to 0.7, matches take literally seconds for me to join any time of the day or night, 24/7. so fast that often i dont get time to cancel if i immediately click cancel after searching for a game.

their excuse for the 1.0 spread is to reduce wait times, i don't see any wait times to reduce.

By the same token, I don't see any reason why they should change it at all. Its fine how it is with the exception of a few BRs where technology gaps create severe advantages/disadvantages and that's really only a high tier issue anyway. Most of the time, any given vehicle can fight any other vehicle a full BR above them just fine. Sometimes even multiple full BRs higher.

+/-1 BR is fine.

if thats the case then why not not just remove the br spread and put every tank from br 1 and 2 into br 1, every br from 3 to 4 into br 2, 5-6 to 3, 7-8 to 4 etc. that way you have twice the tanks in each br, and as you said every tank can still reasonably pen each other. thats exactly what uptiers do.

your reasoning for keeping it in the game is exactly why it should be lowered.

-some tanks just cant pen tanks any higher than their current br
-downtiered tanks can completely bully lower br tanks with better pen and armour
-wait times, the whole reason for the BR spread, already only takes seconds
-br spread is a lot worse in aircraft especially in the AAM with no counter BR

[Toblm]

Originally posted by Piggy INSOMNIAC 3D:

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

By the same token, I don't see any reason why they should change it at all. Its fine how it is with the exception of a few BRs where technology gaps create severe advantages/disadvantages and that's really only a high tier issue anyway. Most of the time, any given vehicle can fight any other vehicle a full BR above them just fine. Sometimes even multiple full BRs higher.

+/-1 BR is fine.

if thats the case then why not not just remove the br spread and put every tank from br 1 and 2 into br 1, every br from 3 to 4 into br 2, 5-6 to 3, 7-8 to 4 etc. that way you have twice the tanks in each br, and as you said every tank can still reasonably pen each other. thats exactly what uptiers do.

your reasoning for keeping it in the game is exactly why it should be lowered.

-some tanks just cant pen tanks any higher than their current br
-downtiered tanks can completely bully lower br tanks with better pen and armour
-wait times, the whole reason for the BR spread, already only takes seconds
-br spread is a lot worse in aircraft especially in the AAM with no counter BR

What you proposed makes a fixed meta rather than the fluid meta of the current BR system. Its not a good alternative, but I think you realize that already.

To paraphrase Churchill: The current BR system is the worse matchmaker style except for every other.

[kingjames488]

Originally posted by Toblm:

What you proposed makes a fixed meta

2 modes-
air and ground
air and naval

reduce the BR gap to .7

have arcade air/ground spawns work the same as air/naval with spawn points for air

[Druckform | INSOMNIAC 3D]

Originally posted by Toblm:

Originally posted by Piggy INSOMNIAC 3D:

if thats the case then why not not just remove the br spread and put every tank from br 1 and 2 into br 1, every br from 3 to 4 into br 2, 5-6 to 3, 7-8 to 4 etc. that way you have twice the tanks in each br, and as you said every tank can still reasonably pen each other. thats exactly what uptiers do.

your reasoning for keeping it in the game is exactly why it should be lowered.

-some tanks just cant pen tanks any higher than their current br
-downtiered tanks can completely bully lower br tanks with better pen and armour
-wait times, the whole reason for the BR spread, already only takes seconds
-br spread is a lot worse in aircraft especially in the AAM with no counter BR

What you proposed makes a fixed meta rather than the fluid meta of the current BR system. Its not a good alternative, but I think you realize that already.

To paraphrase Churchill: The current BR system is the worse matchmaker style except for every other.

oh i know, thats why gaijin doesnt use it, but with the current state of the game compared to what it was years ago, theres no need for a 1.0 spread anymore. the only reason the spread exists is to help fill matches, only matches are already being filled immediately for me and have done for years across all BRs. even if it wasnt absolutely instant i really dont care to wait a whole minute for a match just to not get faced against faster and stronger tanks that i may straight up not be able to kill.

[wwiiogre]

Uptiers are the worst game design in history for a battlefield simulator. Either go full historical with timelines or balance the game. There is no point having a BR rating and then pitting 2.3 Italians against 3.3 tanks that their guns cannot penetrate.

This would be easy to fix. Worse, they don't want to fix it as it is working as intended. Part of its about the money for sure. But its also about the ELO here's your trophy for participation. The matchmaker is used to attempt to keep most players at 50/50 win/loss ratios. It intentionally puts you with new players or bad players and uptiered when it wants you to lose.

How do I know this, I was part of a testing team for another war game that plays exactly like this. We extensively tested it. It is designed to make you spend money on consumables and to give participation trophies to bad or new players.

How about a .5 BR cap on uptier with a leveled matchmaker such that anyone with more than 100 games never plays with someone with less than 100 games. Anyone with more than 500 games never plays with someone with less than 500 games. Except squad matches then those should be open. But you will know what you are getting into if you choose that option.

I am sick or roflstomp games. Where I am on the winning or losing side and 80% of one side has no kills. Literally no kills, no assists and the enemy team is spawn camping within a few minutes. Its literally the most boring, worst game possible even on the winning side. In some of those games I have never seen the enemy if I had a slow vehicle.

I don't spawn camp so I will not join the seal clubbing going on in those games.

But once again. its always about the money.

I used to spend $50 a month on this game. For years. Then they increased the grind, reduced rewards for players playing everyday. Put most rewards behind a pay wall and then instituted the worst matchmaker in history. Worse than even the matchmaker at stompy robot warrior online.

So I stopped giving Gaijin my money. It has been years now that Gaijin lost me as a paying customer. Thousands and thousands of dollars they could have gotten from me. I love world war two, I love tanks, I love planes, not a boat person so much.

They had to work incredibly hard to make me not want to ever give them money. I still play the game when matchmaker isn't a witch.

Today 3/4 games I was uptiered in my Italian 2.3 list. Attempting to complete my daily rank 2 mission. Simple right. Nope, nothing like an Italian 47mm trying to penetrate a Churchill or Stug42 or Sherman. Yep, easy peasy. Bouce, bounce, bounce, bounce. Side shot, rear shot, point blank shot, bounce, bounce, bounce.

Then first shot they kill my Italian tank with an Archer, no problemo. Working as intended.

So now, when I get uptiered I no longer play the game. If I get uptiered two times in a row. I leave the game and go play something fun.

I used to recommend this game, I had a positive review. I had to change that to negative because of the changes this game has made and choices it continues to use that take the fun out of the game.

Good Luck, I will keep playing. But its frustrating. I would give Gaijin money again when they decide to make the game fun again, punish the cheaters, make matchmaker fun again.

Sad but true.

Chris

[Shyue Chou]

More rewards or points in uptiers too.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by wwiiogre:

There is no point having a BR rating and then pitting 2.3 Italians against 3.3 tanks that their guns cannot penetrate.

What Italian tank at 2.3 are we talking that can't penetrate what 3.3? Pretty sure they can all penetrate anything 3.3 BR. Maybe not from the front, but not everything should be able to frontally engage everything. Tanks are weak on the sides, flank and win.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by wwiiogre:

I am sick or roflstomp games. Where I am on the winning or losing side and 80% of one side has no kills. Literally no kills, no assists and the enemy team is spawn camping within a few minutes. Its literally the most boring, worst game possible even on the winning side. In some of those games I have never seen the enemy if I had a slow vehicle.

Uptiers have no effect on snowballing. The game is naturally prone to snowballing if the frontline of one team gets the first few kills. It leads to natural overrun that can be hard to stop.

[Tankoslav Tepyatdesyatpyatovich]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by wwiiogre:

There is no point having a BR rating and then pitting 2.3 Italians against 3.3 tanks that their guns cannot penetrate.

What Italian tank at 2.3 are we talking that can't penetrate what 3.3? Pretty sure they can all penetrate anything 3.3 BR. Maybe not from the front, but not everything should be able to frontally engage everything. Tanks are weak on the sides, flank and win.

Better tell what 2.3 tanks, armoured cars and tank destroyers can fight T-34 (1940) (a notorious example of the mentioned 3.3) and not feel it's not their day when they keep meeting it? Consider all the factors, such as gun depression, gun caliber and shell type (the smaller, the more it is prone to ricochets and non-penetration due to shots clinging to protruding armor parts or hitting places where sloped armor angle changes, such as early Pz IV UFP which is thin, but can withstand inaccurate 20-K or SA35 shots, and T-34 has a damn curvy turret from the front; also mind APCR and early APDS (like Swedish 37mm for Lago I or Strv m/41) don't like curvy and sloped armour as well, resulting in worse penetration and even shell destruction, so their seemingly high base penetration is not a panacea, and it's only HE with 45+ mm pen which reliably knock out T-34 crew when landed on its UFP), rate of fire, ballistics, a vehicle's mobility (which can help outflank, if you ARE much faster than T-34 of course) coupled with the fact half or more of the maps don't encourage flanking, there's either no space for it because of solid obstacles like buildings or crags, bodies of water or red zones of self-destruction, or you stay visible all the time with no cover available, or it's just awful soil/snowdrifts which won't let you be faster than this wide-tracked Soviet beast. When I think of Italian M14/41 (47/40), Turan I, even 2.7 AB 43...nah, I wouldn't like to fight T-34 with those, better leave it to someone else. 75/34 M42 - maybe, but not the former three, try to aim for the turret with 47mm - get ricochet/non-pen and die, because L-11 is almost sure to one-shot you, try to outflank - discover there's no room for it, or you face a T-34 's allies in the process and die anyway (thanks, map design guy). You're not limited to Italy, however, every nation may struggle against T-34 (1940) when facing it in full uptier, and I didn't mention M4A1 yet, which is also 3.3.

[SadlyItsDaniel]

(T54 being thrown against stabilised tanks)

[Kogoro]

Originally posted by SadlyItsDaniel:

(T54 being thrown against stabilised tanks)

I got through all the T-54s just fine, play differently and it's not an issue.

[Dr. Pooper]

Originally posted by ErickaUnlimited:

The only time a full uptier really bugs me is 7.7 - 8.7. The capability gap is pretty rough. Otherwise, I don't really find uptiers all that big of a deal. I get people's points to a degree, but learned to adapt to it and adjust my playstyle; I do just fine.

my BT-5 approves

[SadlyItsDaniel]

Originally posted by Kogoro:

Originally posted by SadlyItsDaniel:

(T54 being thrown against stabilised tanks)

I got through all the T-54s just fine, play differently and it's not an issue.

did play different, got a bmp-1 mid-research and finished the t54 lineup with a bmp1