Props aren't fun

[Sonwig]

You just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ climb all day until you're killed by some mouth breathing P51 or XP50 or bf109 who is always above you and has infinite more energy. It's only fun when you go low altitude and then you just get dove on and boom and zoomed. Jets are 100x better even with all aspect missiles sniping you it's never so much of a problem

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

Originalmente postado por mogami_99:

zoom and boom was invented to fight turn fighters

or was it invented because the planes can't turn?

it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

By staying high and keeping your speed up you are in a position to see and react to changing battlefield conditions and gtfo if you need to when enemy reinforcements show up

[kingjames488]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

or was it invented because the planes can't turn?

it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

By staying high and keeping your speed up you are in a position to see and react to changing battlefield conditions and gtfo if you need to when enemy reinforcements show up

so eliminates the need for teamwork, is what you're saying?

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

By staying high and keeping your speed up you are in a position to see and react to changing battlefield conditions and gtfo if you need to when enemy reinforcements show up

so eliminates the need for teamwork, is what you're saying?

Where did you get that from what I said? Energy fighting is best performed in a team.

When you are turning with your enemy you tend to lose awareness of what’s going on around you. There are plenty of stories of pairs of dogfighting pilots ending up alone with no other aircraft in sight. There are no doubt plenty we never hear about because they ended up alone with multiple enemies so they never made it out.

There is also the loss of energy as you continuously try to turn with someone you are dumping speed and often altitude too. So when a fresh opponent shows up and you find yourself outnumbered you can’t disengage because they are already in a position to dive and run you down.

Not every fight is to the death. Being able to recognise a bad situation, or even just one that could go either way and preserve your aircraft is more important. Energy fighting tends to give you better opportunity to see what is going on and make those decisions with less risk

[kingjames488]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

so eliminates the need for teamwork, is what you're saying?

Where did you get that from what I said? Energy fighting is best performed in a team.

from

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

[it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

the game isn't a "1v1 me breh!" scenario... if their team is coming along and cleaning you up that's because they have a better team... you're pretty much saying that diving was invented to bypass the team nature of a team-based game to cheese people like we know is the case...

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

[it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Where did you get that from what I said? Energy fighting is best performed in a team.

from

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

[it was invented because getting low and slow in a turnfight leaves you dead to rights when the next guy comes along.

the game isn't a "1v1 me breh!" scenario... if their team is coming along and cleaning you up that's because they have a better team... you're pretty much saying that diving was invented to bypass the team nature of a team-based game to cheese people like we know is the case...

you what mate?

To break it down first things first, you do realise energy fighting wasn’t invented in a videogame…

Secondly nothing about being low and slow then another enemy turning up indicates ‘1v1’ or anything else.

You could be turn fighting with 3 enemies, you could have teammates helping you, turn fighting is still burning speed and altitude, hence the low and slow comment…

None of that helps you when an enemy you didn’t see coming shows up at higher altitude and you have no means to fight back or escape, this applies just as much in game as in real life.

It doesn’t mean the enemy team is better than yours. It could mean your ally disengaged. Or another fight at higher altitude moved close enough to yours they saw an opportunity and broke off.

Energy fighting is about being able to react to the unexpected because you can’t predict what is going to happen

[kingjames488]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

from

the game isn't a "1v1 me breh!" scenario... if their team is coming along and cleaning you up that's because they have a better team... you're pretty much saying that diving was invented to bypass the team nature of a team-based game to cheese people like we know is the case...

you what mate?

To break it down you do realise energy fighting wasn’t invented in a videogame…

Secondly nothing about being low and slow then another enemy turning up indicates ‘1v1’ or anything else. You could be turn fighting with 3 enemies, you could have teammates helping you. None of that helps you when an enemy you didn’t see coming shows up at higher altitude and you have no means to fight back or escape

you have a minimap thing that literally shows you that there's a guy near you... this isn't vietnam m8... it's a video game.

you can see them above and around you on this virtual thing that shows you they are there and then you can pop and weave like a bumblebee while your team picks them off... if you have a team.

I've run around like 6 guys before trying to turn fight me lol... if you have a team it's real easy for them to pick off people chasing you.

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

you what mate?

To break it down you do realise energy fighting wasn’t invented in a videogame…

Secondly nothing about being low and slow then another enemy turning up indicates ‘1v1’ or anything else. You could be turn fighting with 3 enemies, you could have teammates helping you. None of that helps you when an enemy you didn’t see coming shows up at higher altitude and you have no means to fight back or escape

you have a minimap thing that literally shows you that there's a guy near you... this isn't vietnam m8... it's a video game.

you can see them above and around you on this virtual thing that shows you they are there and then you can pop and weave like a bumblebee while your team picks them off... if you have a team.

I've run around like 6 guys before trying to turn fight me lol... if you have a team it's real easy for them to pick off people chasing you.

I don’t know what mode you are playing but I certainly don’t have a minimap showing enemy positions, not even my own teams for that matter.

But even if you do don’t assume situational awareness is perfect in a dogfight. People still find ways to plow into the ground or be shot by someone they didn’t see coming all the time from videos of arcade I have seen, god knows I don’t play that garbage

I genuinely don’t know how I can dumb it down any more than I have mate… sometimes it is better to run away and come back to the fight from a more advantageous position. Turn fighting is overcommitting to a position that may turn against you and you should always have a plan to get out again

This is all ignoring my first point that energy fighting wasn’t invented in a videogame…

[kingjames488]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

you have a minimap thing that literally shows you that there's a guy near you... this isn't vietnam m8... it's a video game.

you can see them above and around you on this virtual thing that shows you they are there and then you can pop and weave like a bumblebee while your team picks them off... if you have a team.

I've run around like 6 guys before trying to turn fight me lol... if you have a team it's real easy for them to pick off people chasing you.

I don’t know what mode you are playing but I certainly don’t have a minimap showing enemy positions, not even my own teams for that matter.

But even if you do don’t assume situational awareness is perfect in a dogfight. People still find ways to plot into the ground or be shot by someone they didn’t see coming all the time from videos of arcade I have seen, god knows I don’t play that garbage

I genuinely don’t know how I can dumb it down any more than I have mate… sometimes it is better to run away and come back to the fight from a more advantageous position. Turn fighting is overcommitting to a position that may turn against you and you should always have a plan to get out again

oh ya no, I play arcade because I play the game for fun :D

your experience might be more frustrating.

[shadain597]

Originalmente postado por Lemon:

Originalmente postado por coolasianinja:

skill issue. ill eat any prop plane alive with my zeroes.

guy complains about meta planes, calls him out for skill issue, flexes with meta plane. 300 iq play and proving his point about the mouth breathing aspect

No, "guy" complained about BnZ meta planes. Zeroes are not on that list.

Originalmente postado por kingjames488:

Originalmente postado por mogami_99:

zoom and boom was invented to fight turn fighters

or was it invented because the planes can't turn?

Isn't that basically the same thing? Instead of just giving up and dying, you use whatever advantage your plane has over the the enemy plane. If you'd lose a turnfight but have a faster straight-line speed, BnZ is the answer, especially if you can also acquire the altitude advantage.

[Sogaki]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

Originalmente postado por Lemon:

guy complains about meta planes, calls him out for skill issue, flexes with meta plane. 300 iq play and proving his point about the mouth breathing aspect

zeros are only ‘meta’ because the meta is defined by the lowest common denominator players who haven’t figured out that American aircraft, like muscle cars, tend to get out turned by lighter foreign vehicles and their advantage lies in straight line performance

Zeroes and the German Space Force are meta because RB gamemodes and maps favour turn fighters and quick climbers:
1) they're too small for slow climbing altitude fighters to get in an optimal position before encountering the other team (while still staying on course for the objective)
2) all objectives are on the ground
3) 90% of the maps have the ground at sea level, so altitude fighters will always have a flight performance handicap when trying to complete objectives

Also I don't buy the "it's American players that have skill issue" argument, back when the P47 had an airspawn everyone was playing them well enough to make the playerbase so salty the snail revoked the P47's airspawn.
It takes 10 seconds to find a guide on how to play them and the main difference between any American plane and other energy fighters is how much time it takes to get to the right altitude/speed (which is more than what the average player has the patience for, myself included)

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por Sogaki:

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

zeros are only ‘meta’ because the meta is defined by the lowest common denominator players who haven’t figured out that American aircraft, like muscle cars, tend to get out turned by lighter foreign vehicles and their advantage lies in straight line performance

Zeroes and the German Space Force are meta because RB gamemodes and maps favour turn fighters and quick climbers:
1) they're too small for slow climbing altitude fighters to get in an optimal position before encountering the other team (while still staying on course for the objective)
2) all objectives are on the ground
3) 90% of the maps have the ground at sea level, so altitude fighters will always have a flight performance handicap when trying to complete objectives

Also I don't buy the "it's American players that have skill issue" argument, back when the P47 had an airspawn everyone was playing them well enough to make the playerbase so salty the snail revoked the P47's airspawn.
It takes 10 seconds to find a guide on how to play them and the main difference between any American plane and other energy fighters is how much time it takes to get to the right altitude/speed (which is more than what the average player has the patience for, myself included)

having played since the game was air only I have no faith whatsoever in players ability or willingness to learn. I have literally met American heavy bomber pilots that would take airfield spawns because they thought the takeoff bonus was more valuable than starting at altitude, because at least if they die they got some rp…and no amount of trying to explain why that was *** backwards and they would be more likely to achieve something starting high would convince them otherwise

Nevermind the old matches like US versus Uk on Malta, or US versus Japan on a pacific map. The number of US pilots I have seen go in at low altitude and try to turn with far superior aircraft far exceeds those I have seen use them properly. To this day I vividly remember one teammate, must have been in 2015 or 16, who actually flew his p47 worth a damn and we managed to tag team a Japanese team to death from high altitude after the rest of our team died stupidly on the opening minutes. I remember it because it was so damned rare to be almost unheard of

Hell I even once had a team rage and tell me they were all reporting me because I climbed, apparently it was all my fault we lost because I ‘played passively’ and didn’t go in low to ‘support the team’. They died so fast I hadn’t even managed to engage yet and was left last man standing

And don’t even get me started on players air jousting, if I have one more rb player on this forum try to claim head ons are peak skill and noone could possibly out maneuvre them if they just keep going at them I am going to lose what little faith I have left in humanity, I genuinely think you could train a chimp to do better

There is a reason I won’t play air RB anymore, and it’s entirely the players. I’m not saying I think any other nation has inherently better players to be clear. As far as I’m concerned the vast majority of RB players are awful pilots but other nations let them get away with it far more. At least in sim enduring confrontation I am not reliant on the morons and can survive perfectly fine on my own

[shadain597]

Originalmente postado por Sogaki:

Also I don't buy the "it's American players that have skill issue" argument, back when the P47 had an airspawn everyone was playing them well enough to make the playerbase so salty the snail revoked the P47's airspawn.
It takes 10 seconds to find a guide on how to play them and the main difference between any American plane and other energy fighters is how much time it takes to get to the right altitude/speed (which is more than what the average player has the patience for, myself included)

Committing to a 1v1 turnfight in an American plane below 2km when the opponent is something like a Zero, Spitfire, or Yak is absolutely a skill issue. The P-47 isn't going to win that. Even if one decides that climbing in a P-47 isn't worth it, boom & run is still less suicidal.

And it's not like the P-47 is the only prop in the USA tree. P-38s typically get an interceptor spawn, making up for the climb rate, while at least some of the spaded P-51s have pretty good climb rates--not as good as a 109, but they absolutely can side climb, especially if the 109s start diving on lower altitude targets. Yet people climb in P-51s only a little more often than P-47s, and I think most of the ones I see doing so are copy/pasta in non-USA trees.

[shadain597]

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

They died so fast I hadn’t even managed to engage yet and was left last man standing

Yeah, this is a problem with many of my teams, but it happens almost 100% of the time with USA-dominated teams. The exceptions are shocking in both rarity and how well the match goes in our favor. But, most of the time, if your own fighter absolutely needs altitude to perform, being on team USA is just a waste of time and SL (for the repair bill). Even if you get up to altitude, half of the enemy team is waiting for you.

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

And don’t even get me started on players air jousting, if I have one more rb player on this forum try to claim head ons are peak skill and noone could possibly out maneuvre them if they just keep going at them I am going to lose what little faith I have left in humanity, I genuinely think you could train a chimp to do better

I get a great deal of satisfaction from watching more maneuverable fighters commit suicide by taking attackers and certain bombers head-on, even if the idiot was on my team.

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

There is a reason I won’t play air RB anymore, and it’s entirely the players. I’m not saying I think any other nation has inherently better players to be clear. As far as I’m concerned the vast majority of RB players are awful pilots but other nations let them get away with it far more.

I think USA prop pilots are a bit worse, on average, but I also agree that the USA fighters punish terrible gameplay more than the fighters of most other nations. I think Arcade probably teaches players a ton of bad habits that they never attempt to shake when they transition to RB.

[Chaoslink]

Originalmente postado por Sogaki:

Originalmente postado por Eftwyrd:

zeros are only ‘meta’ because the meta is defined by the lowest common denominator players who haven’t figured out that American aircraft, like muscle cars, tend to get out turned by lighter foreign vehicles and their advantage lies in straight line performance

Zeroes and the German Space Force are meta because RB gamemodes and maps favour turn fighters and quick climbers:
1) they're too small for slow climbing altitude fighters to get in an optimal position before encountering the other team (while still staying on course for the objective)
2) all objectives are on the ground
3) 90% of the maps have the ground at sea level, so altitude fighters will always have a flight performance handicap when trying to complete objectives

Also I don't buy the "it's American players that have skill issue" argument, back when the P47 had an airspawn everyone was playing them well enough to make the playerbase so salty the snail revoked the P47's airspawn.
It takes 10 seconds to find a guide on how to play them and the main difference between any American plane and other energy fighters is how much time it takes to get to the right altitude/speed (which is more than what the average player has the patience for, myself included)

Yeah, people have to remember that air battles on the western front were fought at very high altitudes much of the time. Like 15,000 feet or more. On the Eastern front is was the opposite, where battles were fought mostly near the ground. It’s one of the reasons why the allies fighting over the western front really didn’t like the aerocobra series much but the Russians loved it, it performed best at lower altitude.

War Thunder doesn’t really support battles happening at extreme altitude where some planes basically just don’t function at all.

[Eftwyrd]

Originalmente postado por Chaoslink:

Originalmente postado por Sogaki:

Zeroes and the German Space Force are meta because RB gamemodes and maps favour turn fighters and quick climbers:
1) they're too small for slow climbing altitude fighters to get in an optimal position before encountering the other team (while still staying on course for the objective)
2) all objectives are on the ground
3) 90% of the maps have the ground at sea level, so altitude fighters will always have a flight performance handicap when trying to complete objectives

Also I don't buy the "it's American players that have skill issue" argument, back when the P47 had an airspawn everyone was playing them well enough to make the playerbase so salty the snail revoked the P47's airspawn.
It takes 10 seconds to find a guide on how to play them and the main difference between any American plane and other energy fighters is how much time it takes to get to the right altitude/speed (which is more than what the average player has the patience for, myself included)

Yeah, people have to remember that air battles on the western front were fought at very high altitudes much of the time. Like 15,000 feet or more. On the Eastern front is was the opposite, where battles were fought mostly near the ground. It’s one of the reasons why the allies fighting over the western front really didn’t like the aerocobra series much but the Russians loved it, it performed best at lower altitude.

War Thunder doesn’t really support battles happening at extreme altitude where some planes basically just don’t function at all.

eh it’s a little more nuanced than that, the soviets flew massive formations of attack aircraft in at low altitudes and optimised some of their fighters engines for those altitudes too but the Germans didn’t want to engage them directly. Orders actually came down for them not to engage Soviet fighters at low altitude.

But this is half the reason German aces stacked up kill counts on that front that will likely never be surpassed, the other half being the Germans didn’t rotate their experienced pilots out to training positions so they kept fighting until they died or the war ended. Now I’m not going to argue with someone that wants to come along and say the counts were inflated, but they were certainly higher than anywhere else there ever will be.

So yes and no, combat happened lower on the eastern front, but only due to one sides actions and the other using their altitude made them pay for it with truly absurd numbers of aircraft shot down

Players regardless of nation essentially role play the soviets, and then wonder why Soviet aircraft seem better at it for the average Joe