How to fix the CAS problem;

[Graephen]

Skip to (SOLUTIONS) if you aren't interested in reading all this.



So I've been with War Thunder for a long time - circa 2014, but started playing Ground only in 2016. Still quite a long time to remember people complaining all the time about overpowered SPAAs. Yep - you heard me.

People were endlessly complaining about everything that had access to German HVAP ammunitions, so any 37mm or 20mm like the Wirbelwind, M42, Ostwind I, Sdkfz 2/6 which resulted in them being hit with a nerfbat along with many other vehicles, when penetration values for each ammunition were standardised across-the-board in a completely "realistic" way. On top of this - over the years the developers have swapped-around SPAAs between rank III and II and removed most of the 40mm Bofors SPAA from rank III, so as to lock SPAA to a primarily anti-air role.

But this has created an another problem - now air units have a completely free reign, because there isn't simply any point in playing an SPAA, excluding the occasional R3 capturing a few points at the beginning of each match.

Additionaly - SPAAs have always suffered from awful rewards. This doesen't really make sense, because planes and helicopters are usually harder to fight than anything on the ground save for a few exceptions, even if the ones people generally use are often many BRs lower - the point is they have a lot of bombs. A good example is the Ar-2 I like to use for USSR, as I don't play USSR's air tree enough to use some of the better bombers at higher BRs. This thing has 4x 250kg bombs - all of which I can semi-reliably get a kill most of the time.

Lastly - there's just not enough of them. The tech tree could be chock-full of different "autocannons on wheels" from 1.0 to 12.3, but they're scarce and far-between. Even some of the light tanks are actually re-labeled SPAAs or APCs. There's ONE single premium SPAA in the entire game - the ZUT. Arguably a VERY fun SPAA to play, albeit not very effective against planes. Why isn't there more? I'd gladly own one.

<<(SOLUTIONS)>>

1. Give ALL SPAAs a flat 300% reward for killing air targets both SP and RP, while all other ground vehicles get +150%. Air targets should be worth more in general - especially when people tend to use lower-BR planes, with the same bombs as the ones higher planes get, but you get rewarded less for shooting them down.

Example: I use a P-47 Thunderbolt for Britain at 5.3, because it has 3 x 500lb bomb and can deal with other fighters easily while being a premium plane. People get rewarded less for shooting me down, because it's a 3.7 plane at 5.3, but it has a better bomb-loadout than the Typhoon.

2. Add a LOT more SPAAs. At least 3 to 8 for each nation's tree, depending on the nation - bonus if they're all new vehicles. There should also be at least 2 or 3 premium SPAAs per every tree - one at lowtier, one at midtier and one near the toptier. A 9.0 premium SPAA would sell well and people would definitely like to make extra rewards for downing planes.
The only nation not needing any more SPAAs is USSR, because it has plenty - excluding maybe two premium vehicles. Israel on the other hand doesen't need more than 4 SPAAs added overall, because it's tree start in the upper-middle.
The point is - they need to be at least as common tank destroyers or light tanks.

3. Give an incentive for SPAAs to spawn earlier by giving ALL of them spotting. Even lowtier ones. This will make "Inteligence" missions easier to do for nations, which don't really have too many light vehicles as well as making SPAAs more active. A lot of them are actually dedicated scouting vehicles, such as the Italian R3, so this change also makes sense.

4. Improve their anti-tank capabilities. Uptier large-calibre SPAAs and give them better ammo where possible - I think German HVAP should make a comeback in this meta, for example. Also - a 37mm autocannon shouldn't be at 1.7 for any reason. It should be at least 3.0 - I'm talking about Sdkfz 2/6 with the 3.7 flak. Downtier the SPAAs like Skink, which are sitting at 5.3 and unable to penetrate anything on that BR, or at least give it some armor-piercing ammo if it exists.

5. Give a lot of them rank III. So-Ki doesen't deserve to be at rank II, because it's a very good SPAA and very capable for 3.3 Japan. Crusader I SPAA doesen't deserve to be at rank II. CCKW with 40mm bofors also doesen't belong to 2.0 rank II. Neither does the milktruck - it's 4.0, should be rank III, because people tend to use it up-until they reach the M53/59 These vehicles were used and common when they were able to kill tanks and an SPAA shouldn't be a reward pinata - just like bombers in Air RB.


6. Bigger addition - planes really need a hit analysis just like tanks have it. If I do a "Critical Hit" I want to know if it's just the enemy's gear I've damaged, or if his tail is unusable and he's going to crash soon. This would be a welcome addition to Air RB as well.

Inspired by suggestion from

Diposting pertama kali oleh CoKane Dealer:

7. Add aircraft-spotting, which would last for a shorter time, than that of the tanks, but both SPAAs and Light Tanks would be able to do it. "Air 210" is enough to know there is an aircraft SOMEWHERE, but it's not really effective at all. It server more like a warning that there is an aircraft on the battlefield, but not where it is.
Light tanks also have the most problems with CAS. If plane spotting were to be added, fighters and SPAAs could possibly help them in-time.

Inspired by suggestion from

Diposting pertama kali oleh Legion:

With these changes, people will be glad to see planes, because they'll be rewarding to kill. Currently the rewards for downing a lowtier plane is abysmal and planes are annoying, because it doesen't matter if you get hit by the same bomb from a plane, that is from 1939 and the same bomb from a plane that is from 1980s.

If you're tired of everyone saying "Just use an SPAA" when there's basically no reward for downing planes in it and it's probably even more economical to leave a match when there's too many planes, this one's for you.

[Zalzany]

Hell for a little while that first year the Whirlybird SPAA were the worst thing you could run into on the map for ground battles I kind miss those days those glass cannons lol Its like you had to worry about his 20mm with AP killing your light tank, but a single HE shell could reck them lol And people using AP on them would over pen and not take them out lol

Was the same with the flack barges in early naval testing thsoe things were gods lol manual set fuses with a good crew they would pent and blow up inside a ship or just explode so close to a patrol boat they would wreck their crew and modulels lol Like there was breif times when AA was really good in the game sigh

[Spud]

CAS is King

[FkYoSht]

100%.

As an SPAA main, anything other than the satisfaction of potentially knocking a player out of battle, there's no profit in playing SPAAs. Often it is barely worth the ammo and repair cost.

An increase in RP and SL would reward the legitimate skill it takes to down a CAS plane (especially depending on the gun used).

[Pozieres]

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

[French Cat]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pozieres:

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

True, I prefer to play CAP.

[Graephen]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Zalzany:

Hell for a little while that first year the Whirlybird SPAA were the worst thing you could run into on the map for ground battles I kind miss those days those glass cannons lol Its like you had to worry about his 20mm with AP killing your light tank, but a single HE shell could reck them lol And people using AP on them would over pen and not take them out lol

Was the same with the flack barges in early naval testing thsoe things were gods lol manual set fuses with a good crew they would pent and blow up inside a ship or just explode so close to a patrol boat they would wreck their crew and modulels lol Like there was breif times when AA was really good in the game sigh

Yeah, the SF-40 is still quite a menace in Naval. I remember those times, but somehow it felt more balanced than now.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pozieres:

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

Don't forget, that CAS kills mostly with guns alone. So any fighter with even a 7mm machinegun will be a menace to open-topped tanks.

[CoinSpin]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pozieres:

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

Absolutely, unequivocally 100% no. You make it so that fighters can spawn in right from the start, you are destroying the gameplay of every already vulnerable open top and/or light armored vehicles who are highly susceptible to damage or destruction from strafing. Making planes with no bombs cheaper to spawn does nothing to help them at all. It would likely become impossible for those lighter and/or slower & less armored units to get to cap points, get into proper combat positions, etc. As it is, planes are too easy to spawn in and enter the combat arena too early in matches now, this would only make it worse.

You make spawning in fighters from the start a doable thing, and the game would become nothing but planes and heavy tanks, with some crazies in SPAA with delusions of grandeur. You'd basically be flying a big middle finger to all of us who like to our SPGs and light tanks, and I guarantee you'd frustrate (even more) a huge number of players who would end up leaving and never look back.

[French Cat]

Diposting pertama kali oleh CoinSpin:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pozieres:

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

Absolutely, unequivocally 100% no. You make it so that fighters can spawn in right from the start, you are destroying the gameplay of every already vulnerable open top and/or light armored vehicles who are highly susceptible to damage or destruction from strafing. Making planes with no bombs cheaper to spawn does nothing to help them at all. It would likely become impossible for those lighter and/or slower & less armored units to get to cap points, get into proper combat positions, etc. As it is, planes are too easy to spawn in and enter the combat arena too early in matches now, this would only make it worse.

You make spawning in fighters from the start a doable thing, and the game would become nothing but planes and heavy tanks, with some crazies in SPAA with delusions of grandeur. You'd basically be flying a big middle finger to all of us who like to our SPGs and light tanks, and I guarantee you'd frustrate (even more) a huge number of players who would end up leaving and never look back.

Well arty is gonna kill you anyways.

[Legion]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Graephen:

This is not about being bad with an SPAA or "planes OP". It's about people not using them, because they're simply not rewarding to play, there's few to basically none premium SPAAs and they cannot fight tanks anymore - not even semi-reliably most of them - 20mm Crusader and Skink come to mind.

You really ARE the thick-skulled one here and It's a nice example of projection. Read the post first next time before replying. I love playing planes and SPAAs, but the latter's rewards and anti-armor capabilities were nerfed to the ground a long time ago and so were their rewards, which results in very few people even bringing one. I personally prefer an extra tank, unless I have a daily involving SPAAs. I then just counter planes with a fighter.

I am done replying to you and I suggest to everyone to stop doing so as well, because a conversation with you will lead nowhere as you obviously just don't read the OP. However, thank you for keeping the post alive with your replies.

I did read your suggestions and most of them wont fix the CAS 'issues' and would just make things worse but whatever I'm done replying to this thread also...ciao!

[Graephen]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Legion:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Graephen:

This is not about being bad with an SPAA or "planes OP". It's about people not using them, because they're simply not rewarding to play, there's few to basically none premium SPAAs and they cannot fight tanks anymore - not even semi-reliably most of them - 20mm Crusader and Skink come to mind.

You really ARE the thick-skulled one here and It's a nice example of projection. Read the post first next time before replying. I love playing planes and SPAAs, but the latter's rewards and anti-armor capabilities were nerfed to the ground a long time ago and so were their rewards, which results in very few people even bringing one. I personally prefer an extra tank, unless I have a daily involving SPAAs. I then just counter planes with a fighter.

I am done replying to you and I suggest to everyone to stop doing so as well, because a conversation with you will lead nowhere as you obviously just don't read the OP. However, thank you for keeping the post alive with your replies.

I did read your suggestions and most of them wont fix the CAS 'issues' and would just make things worse but whatever I'm done replying to this thread also...ciao!

It is a shame you went toxic out of nowhere on this thread, because I've added one of your suggestions and even gave you credit for it. It seems weird to suddenly do a 180°, but suit yourself. I just don't like arguing for no reason.

[Lucas Stocki]

Having a spaa spot would help to destroy them, but even so it doesn't make it easy to destroy a plane, after all there are many variables in speed, altitude, distance, in this regard I prefer to use my TYPE 99 to destroy planes than a SPAA

[Belgord]

one of the worst things is you can just DIE and get a plane with the ability to kill tanks, no kills, no assists, just have to die. cap and fly in a low tier is still a thing

[mogami_99]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Belgord:

one of the worst things is you can just DIE and get a plane with the ability to kill tanks, no kills, no assists, just have to die. cap and fly in a low tier is still a thing

? You begin with 450 points. You spend some on first vehicle and die. Now you have less then 450 points while the aircraft costs 650. (in any case more then 450)
Am I missing something?

[Blamite Delight]

I think what they really need to do is rework the "airstrike" modification mechanic. In RB that little modification allows a light tank to get a discount on aircraft spawn points per target scouted and destroyed.

[Blamite Delight]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kitty Cat:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Pozieres:

there is a simple solution to fixing CAS, make fighters and AAMs cheaper (fighters with ground ordinance would still be usual price).

In fact you could even make CAS cheaper if you gave the option for players to spawn in fighters right from the beginning

True, I prefer to play CAP.

here take my points, for playing Combat Air Patrol you deserve nothing less. What an absolute champion (this isn't passive aggressive or anything, this is me being genuinly proud of your actions)