Su-39 premium better than Su-25T

[Carl Hamilton]

Gaijin, according to your lastest video, the premium version of the Su-25T is simply better. This means the top tier Russian ground attack aircraft is premium. It is not a big difference perhaps, but it is never the less pay to win, in the current environment, do you really feel this is a prudent choice?

[Siberian Frontier]

39 has radar pod

[Serano E'Stabant]

These air-to-ground radars are not so good. Even newest air to ground radars have quite low resolutions. If I remember correctly, the resolution of Su-35S in air to ground mode is something like 0.5 meters. So even if the 39 had such pod, at the time it was introduced it wouldn't have mattered that much. against small ground targets. I believe the main purpose of the pod was to be used as a general terrain reconaissance and naval-borne target tracking.

Event latest attack helicopters havent implemented radar-guided ATGMs simply because it is an overkill for 99% of the time, and they are damn expensive to manufacture.

"
The Su-39 (also known as the Su-25T or Su-25TM) is a Frogfoot variant incorporating post-Afghanistan lessons-learned. It is based on the Su-25UB two-seat trainder, with the rear seat and cockpit replaced with a fuel cell and extra avionics. The Su-39 carries the Kopyo-25 multi mode radar in a pod under the fuselage. Armament includes ground attack missiles such as the AT-16 Vikhr , anti-ship missiles, and AAMs such as the R-27, R-27ER, R-60, R-73 and R-77. A four-fold reduction in thermal signature has been achieved through cooling intakes on the upper surface of aircraft, and a new center body which masks hot turbine blades. Only a few dozen of these aircraft have been built.
"

Радиолокационный прицельный комплекс (РЛПК) «Копье-25» обеспечивает всепогодность обнаружения и предварительное целеуказание в различных режимах, в том числе картографирования. Эта система позволяет применять тактические противокорабельные ракеты не входя в зону действия огневых средств ПВО противника. Также система обнаруживает воздушные цели типа истребитель на встречных курсах до 57 км, на догонных на 25 км, сопровождает одновременно до десяти целей и обстреливает до двух.[4]

This is from the Russian wikipedia. Exactly as I expected, the system is used only for initial targeting, and cartography of areas.

Seconds sentence: "It allows usage of tactical anti-ship missiles without entering the area of enemy's AA."

My guess is, their idea was to scan the area, find targets of matching RCS (Radar Cross Section) and then pre-program the missile to scan for targets with such RCS once it gets close to the area where the ship was.

Pretty much how old soviet anti-ship missiles worked.

The next sentence says that the pod allows you to see enemy air targets at range up to 57 km (if they are coming straight at you), or up to 25 if you are behind them, and also allows tracking of up to 10 targets and engage up to 2. The missiles compatible with the Kopie-25 (Spear-25) system are: R-73, R-27 and R-77 air-to-air missiles.

Edit: well this is actually quite interesting, so with this pod you can effectively defend yourself from fighters! (if you have taken the missiles upon takeoff, obviously)

[Serano E'Stabant]

Originally posted by Serano E'Stabant:

These air-to-ground radars are not so good. Even newest air to ground radars have quite low resolutions. If I remember correctly, the resolution of Su-35S in air to ground mode is something like 0.5 meters. So even if the 39 had such pod, at the time it was introduced it wouldn't have mattered that much. against small ground targets. I believe the main purpose of the pod was to be used as a general terrain reconaissance and naval-borne target tracking.

Event latest attack helicopters havent implemented radar-guided ATGMs simply because it is an overkill for 99% of the time, and they are damn expensive to manufacture.

"
The Su-39 (also known as the Su-25T or Su-25TM) is a Frogfoot variant incorporating post-Afghanistan lessons-learned. It is based on the Su-25UB two-seat trainder, with the rear seat and cockpit replaced with a fuel cell and extra avionics. The Su-39 carries the Kopyo-25 multi mode radar in a pod under the fuselage. Armament includes ground attack missiles such as the AT-16 Vikhr , anti-ship missiles, and AAMs such as the R-27, R-27ER, R-60, R-73 and R-77. A four-fold reduction in thermal signature has been achieved through cooling intakes on the upper surface of aircraft, and a new center body which masks hot turbine blades. Only a few dozen of these aircraft have been built.
"

Радиолокационный прицельный комплекс (РЛПК) «Копье-25» обеспечивает всепогодность обнаружения и предварительное целеуказание в различных режимах, в том числе картографирования. Эта система позволяет применять тактические противокорабельные ракеты не входя в зону действия огневых средств ПВО противника. Также система обнаруживает воздушные цели типа истребитель на встречных курсах до 57 км, на догонных на 25 км, сопровождает одновременно до десяти целей и обстреливает до двух.[4]

This is from the Russian wikipedia. Exactly as I expected, the system is used only for initial targeting, and cartography of areas.

Seconds sentence: "It allows usage of tactical anti-ship missiles without entering the area of enemy's AA."

My guess is, their idea was to scan the area, find targets of matching RCS (Radar Cross Section) and then pre-program the missile to scan for targets with such RCS once it gets close to the area where the ship was.

Pretty much how old soviet anti-ship missiles worked.

The next sentence says that the pod allows you to see enemy air targets at range up to 57 km (if they are coming straight at you), or up to 25 if you are behind them, and also allows tracking of up to 10 targets and engage up to 2. The missiles compatible with the Kopie-25 (Spear-25) system are: R-73, R-27 and R-77 air-to-air missiles.

Edit: well this is actually quite interesting, so with this pod you can effectively defend yourself from fighters! (if you have taken the missiles upon takeoff, obviously)

Edit2: Here is more info:
Не менее опасен Су-25ТМ и в воздушной схватке. "Копье-25" обнаруживает воздушные цели типа истребитель с ЭПР 5 кв.м на встречных курсах на расстоянии до 57 км, на догонных - на 25 км, сопровождает одновременно до 10 и обстреливает до двух целей. Всеракурсные ракеты "воздух-воздух" РВВ-АЕ с комбинированной системой наведения позволяют на равных вести воздушный бой на средних дистанциях с истребителями, вооруженными ракетами "Сперроу" и "AMRA-AM".

"Can find target with RCS of 5 square meters of up to 57 km[...]"
"Can effectively fight against fighters at medium range with enemy fighters, equipped with "Sparrow" and "AMRAAM"

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/attack/su39.html

I will keep searching may be I can find more info regarding plane's air to air capabilities.

Also, the planes designation (had it entered service) would be Su-25TM

[Serano E'Stabant]

And here is even more info:

https://military.wikireading.ru/13585

A radar pod with the name "Kinzhal" is mentioned (NOT to be mistaken with hyper-sonic Kinzhal missile)

Alternative Infrared pod with the name "Hod" is also mentioned.

Unfortunately I cannot find information what is the difference between the "Kinzhal" and the "Kopie" radar pods.

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by Carl Hamilton:

Gaijin, according to your lastest video, the premium version of the Su-25T is simply better. This means the top tier Russian ground attack aircraft is premium. It is not a big difference perhaps, but it is never the less pay to win, in the current environment, do you really feel this is a prudent choice?

both planes are absolute T R A S H. MIG-27K is miles better in every single way.

[DevilDaRebel]

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

Originally posted by Carl Hamilton:

Gaijin, according to your lastest video, the premium version of the Su-25T is simply better. This means the top tier Russian ground attack aircraft is premium. It is not a big difference perhaps, but it is never the less pay to win, in the current environment, do you really feel this is a prudent choice?

both planes are absolute T R A S H. MIG-27K is miles better in every single way.

The su-25k can tank damage like no other plane though, it's computer guided rockets, not the ATGM are amazing as well.

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

both planes are absolute T R A S H. MIG-27K is miles better in every single way.

The su-25k can tank damage like no other plane though, it's computer guided rockets, not the ATGM are amazing as well.

you only get 2 of those anyway, same as MIG-27K, at the same br

[DevilDaRebel]

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

The su-25k can tank damage like no other plane though, it's computer guided rockets, not the ATGM are amazing as well.

you only get 2 of those anyway, same as MIG-27K, at the same br

You can actually get 6-8, custom load-out and fill each pylon with them. And even then, the mig 27k does not have the same survivability.

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

you only get 2 of those anyway, same as MIG-27K, at the same br

You can actually get 6-8, custom load-out and fill each pylon with them. And even then, the mig 27k does not have the same survivability.

no, you can only take 2 TV guided missiles, the rest are laser guided which means aa will reach you before your missile reaches them.

[DevilDaRebel]

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

You can actually get 6-8, custom load-out and fill each pylon with them. And even then, the mig 27k does not have the same survivability.

no, you can only take 2 TV guided missiles, the rest are laser guided which means aa will reach you before your missile reaches them.

Are we even discussing the same thing? If IIRC, the Su-25k has both "dumb" rockets aimed with the ballistic computer and ATGMs. I'm referring to the rockets.

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

no, you can only take 2 TV guided missiles, the rest are laser guided which means aa will reach you before your missile reaches them.

Are we even discussing the same thing? If IIRC, the Su-25k has both "dumb" rockets aimed with the ballistic computer and ATGMs. I'm referring to the rockets.

you said computer guided rockets, those are tv missiles and maybe laser guided, if you wanna say dumb rocket learn terminology, or just refer to them as dumb rockets that go straight with ballistic computer, you cannot guide those rockets, you said "guided" rockets.

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

The su-25k can tank damage like no other plane though, it's computer guided rockets, not the ATGM are amazing as well.

[Serano E'Stabant]

Even the "basic" (early) Su 25s can fire laser guided missiles, you just lack the Shkval targeting system so you need to do it visually through the HUB.

There is plenty of videos on youtube from DCS World you can see exactly how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSOQOTTbQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gys48vV4HTc

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by Serano E'Stabant:

Even the "basic" (early) Su 25s can fire laser guided missiles, you just lack the Shkval targeting system so you need to do it visually through the HUB.

There is plenty of videos on youtube from DCS World you can see exactly how it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSOQOTTbQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gys48vV4HTc

the issue is the zoom on the early variants, its very very low zoom , like 1.2x zoom.

[DevilDaRebel]

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

Are we even discussing the same thing? If IIRC, the Su-25k has both "dumb" rockets aimed with the ballistic computer and ATGMs. I'm referring to the rockets.

you said computer guided rockets, those are tv missiles and maybe laser guided, if you wanna say dumb rocket learn terminology, or just refer to them as dumb rockets that go straight with ballistic computer, you cannot guide those rockets, you said "guided" rockets.

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

The su-25k can tank damage like no other plane though, it's computer guided rockets, not the ATGM are amazing as well.

I'm going to predict English isn't your first language. But uh, I said computer GUIDED, rockets. Not guided rockets, lol. Plus, rockets per definition are not guided. Calling TV or laser ATGMS "computer guided rockets" would be technically incorrect.

[WeebLord69]

Originally posted by DevilDaRebel:

Originally posted by Weeblord69:

you said computer guided rockets, those are tv missiles and maybe laser guided, if you wanna say dumb rocket learn terminology, or just refer to them as dumb rockets that go straight with ballistic computer, you cannot guide those rockets, you said "guided" rockets.

I'm going to predict English isn't your first language. But uh, I said computer GUIDED, rockets. Not guided rockets, lol. Plus, rockets per definition are not guided. Calling TV or laser ATGMS "computer guided rockets" would be technically incorrect.

Ehm Computer Guided means in this case = KH-29T, where the Computer inside the missile guides the Missile, via image processing, so if english is your first language, damn son.