F4C Literally unplayable

[JetWash]

Sees 11.0 in an uptier and lets be honest, every game is an uptier. Gets swarmed by 9L and R60MKs as soon as you get close enough to bomb a base, which is the only way to grind with it because almost every enemy can flare your missiles and if you try to dogfight you bleed half your speed with one s-turn and will get picked off. It had flares historically, the document was submitted to the forum, yet gaijin chooses to ignore it. Move it to 10.3 if you have to, but 10.0 without flares is unjustifiable. For everyone who wants to post "but (insert your nations jet) doesnt have flares and it's (10.0 or higher)" I AGREE WITH YOU. This BR is flooded with premium spam that has all-aspects and CM (even the f5c that DID NOT have flares irl). Nothing should be this high without flares. Its completely unbalanced and not competitive. By all means add another F14 and give Russia a 4th frogfoot, keep compressing the BRs.

I eagerly await "skill issue" and "just dodge them" from people who are happy to have easy targets at their BR.

[ElderKaze]

Learn to use rockets and aim9E as flares will help you increase the survivability significantly, and don't be too greedy, just carry bombs for one base

[JetWash]

Using rockets for a purpose they werent designed for to circumnavigate poor balancing is not a fix. "Skill issue" would have sufficed for brevity.

[Futuristic Hexagon]

F-4C is in a tough place, and as long as I've played around there, always have been a sort of RP Pinata, even when I fly subsonic planes with AIM-9B+copies.

I listened about the proposed economic changes from Matawg last night before my drive home, and it sounds like the F-4C gets hit hard by it. Repair costs doubles and I think it sees a reduction in rewards. It's quite obscene.

Another thing to note. I know the Sparrows Ds are quite terrible on it, but I do wonder if they have similar enough capabilities to the R-23R. If they do, I wonder if using them on orbiting premium jets would work. I find that the vast majority of my R-23R kills were against F-5Cs that couldn't give a damn about my lock from 20km out. Also know AV-8As don't get RWR, and a I hear from experienced Phantom drivers that many early MiG-21s don't pay attention either at high altitude. Again my experience with Phantoms is limited to 2nd hand info and test flights, aling as fighting against it, but I wonder if there is some good eating for it at higher altitudes using SARH missiles.

[ElderKaze]

Originally posted by JetWash:

Using rockets for a purpose they werent designed for to circumnavigate poor balancing is not a fix. "Skill issue" would have sufficed for brevity.

I get ya, but rockets/missles for defending is a very useful trick and you should try it. Since aim7d is too op at BR below 9.7, I don't think it's a good idea to change the BR

[ElderKaze]

Originally posted by Futuristic Hexagon:

F-4C is in a tough place, and as long as I've played around there, always have been a sort of RP Pinata, even when I fly subsonic planes with AIM-9B+copies.

I listened about the proposed economic changes from Matawg last night before my drive home, and it sounds like the F-4C gets hit hard by it. Repair costs doubles and I think it sees a reduction in rewards. It's quite obscene.

Another thing to note. I know the Sparrows Ds are quite terrible on it, but I do wonder if they have similar enough capabilities to the R-23R. If they do, I wonder if using them on orbiting premium jets would work. I find that the vast majority of my R-23R kills were against F-5Cs that couldn't give a damn about my lock from 20km out. Also know AV-8As don't get RWR, and a I hear from experienced Phantom drivers that many MiG-21s don't pay attention either at high altitude. Again my experience with Phantoms is limited to 2nd hand info and test flights, but I wonder if there is some good eating for it at higher altitudes using SARH missiles.

That's what 7D designed for technically, to my experience of using F4C grinding to F4J, sparrows are hard to use because of the radar is not worth to give a trust because grinding F4C seldom goes to high altitude. I still carried it just for tactical options and I often use one or two 9E for defending R60/9L at early game bombing

[JuX]

F-4C is only really viable for ground RB.

The only thing it has going for it is the low repair cost. But with upcoming updates it's going get doubled and will reach "not worth it" status.

9.7-10.3 has very distinct requirement in order to viable. So most aircrafts are simply utter garbage to a point they are unplayable in air battles.

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Learn to use rockets and aim9E as flares will help you increase the survivability significantly, and don't be too greedy, just carry bombs for one base

That only applies when facing front-aspect IR missiles of the SU-25 and A-10. Not so much on anything els.

Base rushing even with lighter load isn't going to help you, cause the moment you turn you loose too much energy to a point something like R-60 from a Mig-21 is going to kill you 100%.

What i used to do before the high altitude vapor trails is fly over the opposition with F-105D to bomb bases. But even that is no longer viable so. Basically another useless aircraft that can do nothing but wait at base until enemy team is loosing significantly so you can move in. If not then you simply land and leave the match at the airfield to try again.

[ElderKaze]

Originally posted by JuX:

That only applies when facing front-aspect IR missiles of the SU-25 and A-10. Not so much on anything els.

Base rushing even with lighter load isn't going to help you, cause the moment you turn you loose too much energy to a point something like R-60 from a Mig-21 is going to kill you 100%.

mk 32 can drag R60s if they don't fire it too close, to my experience I can dodge 80 % of missiles fire from back, but I do agree that mig21 is the boss for base rushing mostly because you can not fire rockets for defending at supersonic and they often came from your back/top so aim9E aren't gonna help.

Still, F4C is the best aircraft for grinding at this tier exclude premiums, I had more than 90% of games to take at least one base kill before shotdown( about 5K RP with premium account), and it only takes about 3-5 minutes to fly to the base so I feel it's ok

[ODINMASTER]

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Learn to use rockets and aim9E as flares will help you increase the survivability significantly, and don't be too greedy, just carry bombs for one base

rockets dont work as flares in game, its been tested

[ODINMASTER]

Originally posted by Futuristic Hexagon:

F-4C is in a tough place, and as long as I've played around there, always have been a sort of RP Pinata, even when I fly subsonic planes with AIM-9B+copies.

I listened about the proposed economic changes from Matawg last night before my drive home, and it sounds like the F-4C gets hit hard by it. Repair costs doubles and I think it sees a reduction in rewards. It's quite obscene.

Another thing to note. I know the Sparrows Ds are quite terrible on it, but I do wonder if they have similar enough capabilities to the R-23R. If they do, I wonder if using them on orbiting premium jets would work. I find that the vast majority of my R-23R kills were against F-5Cs that couldn't give a damn about my lock from 20km out. Also know AV-8As don't get RWR, and a I hear from experienced Phantom drivers that many early MiG-21s don't pay attention either at high altitude. Again my experience with Phantoms is limited to 2nd hand info and test flights, aling as fighting against it, but I wonder if there is some good eating for it at higher altitudes using SARH missiles.

the rep cost is doubling and the rewards are increasing. I dont agree with the rep cost doubling. Its nice the rewards are increasing too but you will end up losing more sl playing the f4c now

[ElderKaze]

Originally posted by ODINMASTER:

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Learn to use rockets and aim9E as flares will help you increase the survivability significantly, and don't be too greedy, just carry bombs for one base

rockets dont work as flares in game, its been tested

come to do a custom game with me if not believe, you use r60m and I use f4c

[JetWash]

Originally posted by Futuristic Hexagon:

F-4C is in a tough place, and as long as I've played around there, always have been a sort of RP Pinata, even when I fly subsonic planes with AIM-9B+copies.

I listened about the proposed economic changes from Matawg last night before my drive home, and it sounds like the F-4C gets hit hard by it. Repair costs doubles and I think it sees a reduction in rewards. It's quite obscene.

Another thing to note. I know the Sparrows Ds are quite terrible on it, but I do wonder if they have similar enough capabilities to the R-23R. If they do, I wonder if using them on orbiting premium jets would work. I find that the vast majority of my R-23R kills were against F-5Cs that couldn't give a damn about my lock from 20km out. Also know AV-8As don't get RWR, and a I hear from experienced Phantom drivers that many early MiG-21s don't pay attention either at high altitude. Again my experience with Phantoms is limited to 2nd hand info and test flights, aling as fighting against it, but I wonder if there is some good eating for it at higher altitudes using SARH missiles.

The AIM7s are decent at high alt if your target hasnt invested CP in vision/awareness and even in a headon if - and it's a BIG IF - you can get it to lock. The radar is poor at locking and if you can get a lock, most of the time it slaves to the wrong target, an ally, or to a cloud. They're incredibly slow and cant pull many Gs so using it in a pursuit is a no-go. Doubling the repair cost is just egregious. Forget profitable, its barely cost-effective as is. I can see it being good in Ground RB (being primarily a strike/bomber irl, go figure) but at 10.0 with no CM its as good as a clay pigeon with all the SAMs at its BR.

I swear, all of its issues would be fixed and even its repair cost increase justified if Gaijin would just give it countermeasures. The ALQ-87 pod and the AN/ALE 29 dispenser were historically part of its armament as well as the AN/ALE 119 radar jammer on the F4C "Wild Weasel" variants. Which would be a great counterpart to the SU-39 since Gaijin is adding jammers to the game.

I get realism sometimes takes a backseat to balancing, but as far as the F4C goes, neither are present

[ODINMASTER]

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Originally posted by ODINMASTER:

rockets dont work as flares in game, its been tested

come to do a custom game with me if not believe, you use r60m and I use f4c

I more mean from a rear aspect dont know if thats what you meant.

[JuX]

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Originally posted by JuX:

That only applies when facing front-aspect IR missiles of the SU-25 and A-10. Not so much on anything els.

Base rushing even with lighter load isn't going to help you, cause the moment you turn you loose too much energy to a point something like R-60 from a Mig-21 is going to kill you 100%.

mk 32 can drag R60s if they don't fire it too close, to my experience I can dodge 80 % of missiles fire from back, but I do agree that mig21 is the boss for base rushing mostly because you can not fire rockets for defending at supersonic and they often came from your back/top so aim9E aren't gonna help.

Still, F4C is the best aircraft for grinding at this tier exclude premiums, I had more than 90% of games to take at least one base kill before shotdown( about 5K RP with premium account), and it only takes about 3-5 minutes to fly to the base so I feel it's ok

There is no dodging 30G missiles from your control zone. Only hope you have is that they mismanage their energy, fire prematurely or from hard side angle.

F8U-2 is the best aircraft at that tier. You can survive consistently and score at least 1-2 kills a battle. Only downside being that sidewinders been nerfed way too much to point they are a joke.

Such as me firing AIM-9G on a target on 1-2km altitude flying slower then me in a straight line. No counter-measures were deployed, so it should have been a kill 100%, but instead as i spectated the missile camera, it went suddenly straight down half way through flight. Seemingly locked on to ground targets.

[JetWash]

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

Originally posted by ODINMASTER:

rockets dont work as flares in game, its been tested

come to do a custom game with me if not believe, you use r60m and I use f4c

I have seen the rocket pod trick work once, maybe twice for me. But you have to throttle down below Mach 1 to fire them off, which is suicidal at mid-high alt since the Mach threshold drops the higher you go. And firing them off straight ahead of you doesnt work if youre being chased because the missile will hit you anyway while tracking the rocket you're firing in front of you.

Regardless, using rockets as flares is like using the handle of a screwdriver to hammer a nail; you can do it, but its stupid and you will more than likely get hurt.

[ElderKaze]

Originally posted by JetWash:

Originally posted by ElderKaze:

come to do a custom game with me if not believe, you use r60m and I use f4c

Regardless, using rockets as flares is like using the handle of a screwdriver to hammer a nail; you can do it, but its stupid and you will more than likely get hurt.

That's why it's a trick for base rush grinding, if I want go high alt I would just grab only 9E and 7D