Why do people keep defending bushes?

[MrDEADBUSH]

They are clearly pay 2 win. I have countless replays where ppl decorate their tanks with lots of bushes and you cannot see what tank is infront of you at all. How am i supposed to hit a weak spot if there is no weak spot to see + volumetric isn't doing any favors?

[mogami_99]

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by mogami_99:

No one plays battle pass to get bushes. There are 3 vehicles in the pass and 6 more in the shop. Level 57 is a give me. You don't even need to do any challenges to get there. (But it is pretty hard not to accidentally do a few) The first challenge is always get 250 kills or assists.
But really this entire issue is a non issue. You have to have the right bushes for the map. And then you have to remain stationary. One shot into the bushes shows what the target is. And most times the barrel is sticking out.
But back to the Battle Pass. You don't need to do anything special. If you don't play everyday it might be a problem. But if you don't play every day every thing is a problem. You can't do most events, and it takes forever to grind. Now playing every day does not mean 4 hours. You can do the easy task in 1 mission and the medium in 2. The specials I don't even try to do in one day since they have no time limit.
You don't really need 6 bushes.
The entire debate is over $10 (what is costs to get 3 bushes) That is where the pay to win comes in. But in every ground battle a vehicle covered in bushes is killed by someone with no bushes.

Bushes cover up weakspots, period.
A Jumbo with bushes is 100% going to perform better than a Jumbo without bushes, that's just factually true.

Even if we pretend everyone just casually completes the BP, that is still 2 years for some bushes, and currently I'm at level 20 or something so I highly doubt everyone just casually gets to 57.

2 years of dedicating themselves to the battlepass, 2 years of forfeiting most of the other rewards, 2 years of being at a disadvantage and that's just to get 6 random bushes that can be totally ass and will never compare to the 6 pack regardless.

No one is saying that bushes are the magic bullet or the golden ammo, but bushes, like ace crew and ace training gives you an objective advantage, and considering you can purchase that advantage, it's pay to win.

Why do you keep saying if you do battle pass you can't do anything else?
I have played every battle pass, I have done every history event and used them to do my daily and special that also do the battle pass. The Battle Pass does not require 100% devotion. It requires 3 things . You log on (1) you do the daily (2) you do specials (3)
When you get dailies you have 22 hours to complete them. Specials have no time limit.
You can change the tasks to align with whatever you were going to do without the battle pass.
I have done most of the events (I didn't do the one that required me to fly)
Battle Pass for me is a side quest. In the current one I have done 9 challenges and that is the most I have done in any and don't think I will complete any more. The only one I had to do something out of the ordinary was use a vehicle from the pass. So I started battles using the S-701. (It capped a few points and then I used the normal blue water ship.
I don't entirely disagree that bushes give an advantage and so are P2W. I am more
about the battle pass not being such a obstacle.
If I thought bushes were such an advantage my vehicle would be covered in them (I have 7) but I only use them for comic relief. Because when I did cover vehicles in bushes I died just the same.

[Legion]

Originally posted by Mirage:

No one is saying that bushes are the magic bullet or the golden ammo, but bushes, like ace crew and ace training gives you an objective advantage, and considering you can purchase that advantage, it's pay to win.

If any of those where outright locked behind a paywall sure they would be 'P2W' but they aren't so that statement is just a outright lie. Just like with most things in WT, its pay to skip the grind, not win (issues with specific 'OP' prem vehicles etc isn't the topic here). Sure you could play the game daily over 'x' amount of time to earn 'x' or you could just pay to skip that grind and get it now for convenience.....the key word being 'OR'. I will say though that earning bushes nowadays is now a much more obnoxious grind since the changes to the warbond shop the addition of new bushes and if you want specific ones also.

Do folks forget about the golden eagles wagers? I've won just over 1000 eagles from them in the last month or 2, more than enough for a bush or 2 if I didn't already have the few I wanted already. I'm also pretty sure my regular squadmate who earned all his bushes via the warbond shop somehow was paying to win to earn them.....somehow....

[mogami_99]

Things that kill me but do not upset me.
CAS
tanks with bushes
long range shots
missiles/rockets
To me these are all just normal

[Noipr0x]

As have already been mentioned it takes time to get them nowdays without paying. But remember they have been here for several years already.
Before they where much easier to get. You could most likly get a few each month if you went for it.
That its more time consuming nowdays to get them and most people already having them dont suddenly make them pay to win when they require more time to get for free.

Even some times they will put you at a disadvantage by you being more visible (not matching the envirement)
The bushes can even block your vision with binos or commander sigth if not propperly placed(in some cases you would need to remove it as you cant place it in an optimal place)

[TUNA!]

People that use bushes know that they gain an advantage from them so they naturally defend it, as it's in there own interest to persevere the advantage they have over other players.

Gaijin really should just refund everyone who purchased a bushes in Golden Eagles even if they earned it in an event and remove them from the game. If this isn't enough make a fun decoration for the users and add it the refund to make it more palpable.

[RollClassic]

This tank rolls over a hill at 800m and uses its -20 degrees gun depression to slap your girlfriend's ass. What do you do?

https://i.imgur.com/A7JDv1s.jpg

Btw this is TWO bushes. I don't use them on principal, but the dead brush is the one I got from this battle pass's chest and the other is just the first bush on the list of bushes. This is just the first tank I decided to see if I could cover with just 2 bushes. Lmao. The L3 for Italy is the smallest thing I can think of and the single dead bush can almost cover the entire front of it.

And if people think "bushes are only good for obscuring weak points", you know how many times I have been shot and I scan the entire ridge line for the tank only to die to a bush? Some times you can't even sort of see their cannon, especially if they're looking right at you. Some smaller tanks can be 100% obscured and all they have to do is not block their binocular sight, which is way above the tank and pretty hard to block with a bush.

All this could be fixed by letting people disable all cosmetics and not just "Non-historical" ones. There's no reason we shouldn't be allowed to see tanks how they were, with historical camo/paints or user camos/paints, but not have to see bushes and fireworks and hazard lights and top hats and ♥♥♥♥ all over tanks.

[Legion]

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

If any of those where outright locked behind a paywall sure they would be 'P2W' but they aren't so that statement is just a outright lie.

''I disagree with your post so it's a lie''

Okay.

Well whats your definition of P2W then? To me P2W means it's locked ENTIRELY behind a pay wall, but if it can be earned via just playing the game (the amount of time needed is a different 'issue'...to some) then its not P2W imo...grind2win maybe lol? None of what you mentioned is locked behind a unavoidable paywall, a grind wall sure but not a pay wall...

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

Just like with most things in WT, its pay to skip the grind.

Yeah, just sell everything for $ and lock it behind a 10 year grind, it's just pay to skip guys.

WT whiners really love their hyperbole don't they!

With the old warbond shop you could earn 1 bush every 30 days now its 1 every 90 (iirc), so even then it's not 10 years to unlock all. Unless you're one of those players who literally only put's a handful of hours into WT a month and expects everything to be given to them naow!...

Just earning and selling one event vehicle out of the many they have a year can provide more than enough GJC to buy a stack of golden eagles to buy a bush or 2 if you don't want to/can't grind them out. I've just checked the eagles price and its £6 for 1,000 eagles, that is a perfectly reasonable amount when you consider it's letting you essentially skip at least 100+ days of 'grinding'. Then you have the eagles in packs you can get off the store that you can grab in a sale that you can use to get a even bigger discount overall etc. Just stuff one less Mc 's meal in your maw and hey presto enough saved for some 'P2W' bushes....

Do any of you play any other F2P games? It sure doesn't seem like it because plenty of other much more popular F2P games have far worse/much more expensive monetisation eg, WoT and WoW come to mind with all the decorations/decals being per vehicle, paid for vehicle performance boosters or the old 'gold' ammo issue etc lol.

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

Do folks forget about the golden eagles wagers? I've won just over 1000 eagles from them in the last month or 2, more than enough for a bush or 2 if I didn't already have the few I wanted already. I'm also pretty sure my regular squadmate who earned all his bushes via the warbond shop somehow was paying to win to earn them.....somehow....

Pretty sure you cannot get the GE wagers anymore, so yes folks probably do forget about those.
And I'm sure your buddy earned them under the current system and not the previous one.

I'm sat on that many boosters from playing for years and I hardly ever bother with them that I've just not noticed them not dropping anymore. My squadmate earned 3 of his bushes via the old warbond shop and the other 2 he has from the new battle pass tied shop. He even got lucky and got the bush he was after as it's random from the warbond shop but this was before they added the newer bushes.

Originally posted by RollClassic:

This tank rolls over a hill at 800m and uses its -20 degrees gun depression to slap your girlfriend's ass. What do you do?

https://i.imgur.com/A7JDv1s.jpg

Btw this is TWO bushes. I don't use them on principal, but the dead brush is the one I got from this battle pass's chest and the other is just the first bush on the list of bushes. This is just the first tank I decided to see if I could cover with just 2 bushes. Lmao. The L3 for Italy is the smallest thing I can think of and the single dead bush can almost cover the entire front of it.

And if people think "bushes are only good for obscuring weak points", you know how many times I have been shot and I scan the entire ridge line for the tank only to die to a bush? Some times you can't even sort of see their cannon, especially if they're looking right at you. Some smaller tanks can be 100% obscured and all they have to do is not block their binocular sight, which is way above the tank and pretty hard to block with a bush.

All this could be fixed by letting people disable all cosmetics and not just "Non-historical" ones. There's no reason we shouldn't be allowed to see tanks how they were, with historical camo/paints or user camos/paints, but not have to see bushes and fireworks and hazard lights and top hats and ♥♥♥♥ all over tanks.

I'd wonder where da fu** I got a girlfriend from lol but anyway......

To be on topic though I don't see a issue with players using all the tools available to them if they are truly are available to ALL in some way eg, paid for (convenience eg, I want NAOW!) or just 'ground' out etc.

Ed:Typos

[Legion]

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

Well whats your definition of P2W then? To me P2W means it's locked ENTIRELY behind a pay wall, but if it can be earned via just playing the game (the amount of time needed is a different 'issue'...to some) then its not P2W imo...grind2win maybe lol? None of what you mentioned is locked behind a unavoidable paywall, a grind wall sure but not a pay wall...

Being able to grind it needs to be within reason, just because you can grind something means it can never be pay to win? There is no line? What if we put bushes behind a 2500 day login reward, it's not pay to win because you can get it through other means, just log in every day for 6-7 years and you get it, thats' fair

Nice hyperbole again lol, if it ever gets that bad I'd happily call it out for how BS it is but its not like that at all. Playing a couple of hours a week per battle pass is more than enough to earn a bush nowadays (even more so now imo, as the old 30 days system had you playing pretty much daily), but please do keep making up worse case scenarios to 'justify' your constant whining about WT like a broken record.

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

With the old warbond shop you could earn 1 bush every 30 days now its 1 every 90 (iirc), so even then it's not 10 years to unlock all. Unless you're one of those players who literally only put's a handful of hours into WT a month and expects everything to be given to them naow!...

That's still 2 years, as if that is nothing, 2 years of constant, dedicated playing.
6 months was pushing it already but making it 3-4 times worse is no big deal apparantly.

Actually 1 and a half years if you wanna be pedantic about it and its not 'constant dedicated playing' either far from it actually. I'm at battle pass level 82 (and I'm not playing daily at all) and you only need to get to level 57 (IIRC) to be able to buy the bush box in the warbond store. BTW the daily logins alone net you 22.5 levels and a good few challenge are easy as all hell so getting to 57 is easy as all hell. I could've stopped playing WT a good few weeks ago and not played it till the next pass starts in just under a month. Just 1 or 2 bushes can be more than enough to do their job, no one is saying you need to fill all 6 cosmetic slots with bushes.

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

Just earning and selling one event vehicle out of the many they have a year can provide more than enough GJC to buy a stack of golden eagles to buy a bush or 2 if you don't want to/can't grind them out. I've just checked the eagles price and its £6 for 1,000 eagles, that is a perfectly reasonable amount when you consider it's letting you essentially skip at least 100+ days of 'grinding'. Then you have the eagles in packs you can get off the store that you can grab in a sale that you can use to get a even bigger discount overall etc. Just stuff one less Mc 's meal in your maw and hey presto enough saved for some 'P2W' bushes....

So it's not pay to win if the price is low enough? Pay to win only kicks in at an arbitrary price?

As I've already said I don't see them as P2W as they are not locked behind a UNAVOIDABLE paywall but behind a low cost (optional) one and they can also be earned for free if you put in a modicum of effort and have more than a few brain cells to knock together, a big ask from the typical WT player I know lol. If they where locked behind a obnoxious paywall and/or grind then I'd be alongside everyone else calling them out but they aren't so yeahhh.

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

Do any of you play any other F2P games? It sure doesn't seem like it because plenty of other much more popular F2P games have far worse/much more expensive monetisation eg, WoT and WoW come to mind with all the decorations/decals being per vehicle, paid for vehicle performance boosters or the old 'gold' ammo issue etc lol.

Whataboutism, there is definitely worse, also definitely better.

Yeah obviously there are but your point is? Should we aim criticism at Gaijin because they don't sell new premium vehicles for £5.99 because some other F2P game dev sells their packs for that much etc?! When compared to other F2P games, WT's monetisation could be much better for sure but it could also be much worse....but let me guess this is just more whataboutisim amiright?

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Legion:

I'm sat on that many boosters from playing for years and I hardly ever bother with them that I've just not noticed them not dropping anymore. My squadmate earned 3 of his bushes via the old warbond shop and the other 2 he has from the new battle pass tied shop. He even got lucky and got the bush he was after as it's random from the warbond shop but this was before they added the newer bushes.

Great for old players who have the GE wagers as well as the easier bushes and a plethora of other vehicles that are unobtainable to new players, an ever increasing amount of them.
But too many people feel entitled to their pixels and don't want things to become obtainable for others.
Always the ''I got mine so screw everyone else'' attitude people have.

I've earned and missed plenty of the event vehicles over the years and I don't moan about those I've missed etc. You don't hear of folks writing into competition companies demanding that they should get given the prize offered a year previously because they missed it as they weren't a 'member' (player) at the time of said prize etc.

I'm gonna sound like a old git now but now we have a whole generation of 'Me, me, me's, I want it naowz'....see it in literally any game that has time limited events or items etc. Even in Deep Rock Galactic with their 100% free season's where all the items you miss go into the games loot pool so at the end so you miss nothing but it STILL has players ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that they are missing out...

I've gotta give you regular WT whiners credit, you really do like making mountains out of molehills over anything that inconveniences you in the slightest in WT so you can have a good old moan about it...

Ed:Typos

[Torn_Apart]

I haven't got a fair number of event and battlepass vehicles, some of which are better than what I have available, because I couldn't be bothered with the grind at the time.
Should the owners of those vehicles be refunded in ge and have them removed?
Same thing in my mind. I have earned my bushes and I don't intend to lose them just because someone else hasn't got them.

[NitekPL]

Maybe it's time to support the game? You can't be a welfare warrior forever.

[Patriot03]

Originally posted by prp426:

I don't see what problem you have with cosmetics the stick unnaturally to a tank and block your view but not the enemies'. This is a perfectly balanced asset.

Kinda the best comment here - Sure keep your bush, but I want it to block your view too. I wonder how many would choose to keep them..

Also I've played this game for well over 1000 hours, I don't have a single free bush, the people claiming you don't buy them are just blatant liars.

[Patriot03]

Originally posted by NitekPL:

Maybe it's time to support the game? You can't be a welfare warrior forever.

By buying a bush? lol

[TUNA!]

Originally posted by NitekPL:

Maybe it's time to support the game? You can't be a welfare warrior forever.

Gotta be honest Welfare Warrior is pretty good come back.

[YaBoiBeanz]

Originally posted by Legion:

...if it ever gets that bad I'd happily call it out for how BS it is but its not like that at all.

Said the frog in the boiling pot.

Originally posted by Patriot03:

Sure keep your bush, but I want it to block your view too. I wonder how many would choose to keep them..

OOh that's a Bingo! (That's how you say it, right?)

Originally posted by - - = TUNA MASTER RACE = - -:

Originally posted by NitekPL:

Maybe it's time to support the game? You can't be a welfare warrior forever.

Gotta be honest Welfare Warrior is pretty good come back.

Proud Welfare Warrior here, whats up?

[Legion]

Originally posted by prp426:

Originally posted by Legion:

...if it ever gets that bad I'd happily call it out for how BS it is but its not like that at all.

Said the frog in the boiling pot.

In relation to the bushes the grind and price to skip said grind is more than fine if you're not a useless moron at WT, which is a big ask going from the quality of a good majority of teammates in matches.