Sdkfz 234/2 "Puma" deserves to be rank III 4.0

[Graephen]

This little beast has more pen than a 75mm Sherman, can flank around the map easily and people use it until they get the LeKpz M41 all the way up to BR 5.7
What's basically a light tank doesen't belong on 3.0 with a 50mm gun and 110mm of APHE pen goodness -light tanks generally don't have the most amazing guns, because they can spot and they can flank. A good example, are the EBRs, M18s, or the PT-76.

Just because tanks at 2.0 can pen it doesen't mean they should face it. Plus putting it on rank III 4.0 has a lot of benefits;

- can't be used as an easy way to get a plane anymore, as it costs more SP to use
- can now research higher tier vehicles
- increases midtier German vehicle variety, so less Panthers and Tigers
- people who start with Germany can do spotting and light tank dailies without having to get the M41 at 6.0 or opening-up another tech tree from the scratch
- BRs 2.0-3.0 can take a breather as they are no longer hunted by a light vehicle with 110mm APHE shells they can't catch and don't expect to be in some places at the start

Same should be done with the Pz.Sfl.Ic, which is superior to the Puma in every way, even though I didn't see one for almost a year now.

[dan]

Let's move the M8A1 Scott to 3.7 and the zis-30 + lvt-a4 to 3.3 while we're at it

[shipdesignerdude]

The Bt-7 should go up in BR too.

[Graephen]

Originally posted by dan:

Let's move the M8A1 Scott to 3.7 and the zis-30 + lvt-a4 to 3.3 while we're at it

I've suggested something similar in a long reddit post, but people generally don't read long posts :(

I have an entire list of vehicles, that could be moved to rank III and upped in their BR to increase vehicle variety while giving people more options on what to use.

Originally posted by shipdesignerdude:

The Bt-7 should go up in BR too.

There's multiple of them, but at least BT-7A and BT-7 (F-32) should definitely go up and have their ranks increased to III as a compensation, so while you're fighting higher BRs, you are also rewarded by being able to do events and missions.

[dan]

Oh I almost forgot, the T55E1 needs to go to 6.0 as well

[Velesianus]

Originally posted by Graephen:

This little beast has more pen than a 75mm Sherman

All of the sonderkraftfahrzeugs have rather generous br's, making them universally a bit op.

The two ultra-rares (Sd.Kfz.234/3 and 234/4) are the most extreme examples but luckily you had to have either played their events or be willing to drop some serious cash on the market to get them.

However, they're given favorable br's because Axis teams have traditionally struggled at certain br ranges and since a vehicle's rating is, most often, performance based and thus capable of being effected by the players it gets paired with..... you get low br puma's

[Graephen]

Originally posted by Velesianus:

Originally posted by Graephen:

This little beast has more pen than a 75mm Sherman

All of the sonderkraftfahrzeugs have rather generous br's, making them universally a bit op.

The two ultra-rares (Sd.Kfz.234/3 and 234/4) are the most extreme examples but luckily you had to have either played their events or be willing to drop some serious cash on the market to get them.

However, they're given favorable br's because Axis teams have traditionally struggled at certain br ranges and since a vehicle's rating is, most often, performance based and thus capable of being effected by the players it gets paired with..... you get low br puma's :sharonsmile:

I think this is only partially true. I think the balance team had a tendency to ignore speed as a factor when giving vehicles BRs and ranks. They only seem to take gun and armor into the account, plus if the tank has any special things, such as IR or stabilizer.

Examples of non-german tanks, which should be higher BR but aren't;
- SARC with 6 pounder
- USSR YaG truck with the 76mm
- BT series tanks
- M22 Locust (should be 2.3 or 2.7 even)

I would definitely buy the 75mm Sdkfz if it were rank III. It belongs higher for sure, imho 3.7 and the "German R3" which is the Sdkfz. 234/1 should be 4.0 as well.

[Velesianus]

Originally posted by Graephen:

They only seem to take gun and armor into the account, plus if the tank has any special things, such as IR or stabilizer

For it's initial dev server reveal, that's correct. However, they then almost always get moved up or down based off of average match performance.

There's a now legendary event in the War Thunder community where a single discord group of highly skilled tryhards took a mediocre aircraft and deliberately forced a large and otherwise completely unwarranted br bump in the next patch by spamming it.

As for other nations, I specifically mentioned puma's as that was the thread topic, but you're correct, there are certainly many vehicles that have lower rating's than they should and for a variety of reasons.

[dan]

Originally posted by Graephen:

Originally posted by Velesianus:

All of the sonderkraftfahrzeugs have rather generous br's, making them universally a bit op.

The two ultra-rares (Sd.Kfz.234/3 and 234/4) are the most extreme examples but luckily you had to have either played their events or be willing to drop some serious cash on the market to get them.

However, they're given favorable br's because Axis teams have traditionally struggled at certain br ranges and since a vehicle's rating is, most often, performance based and thus capable of being effected by the players it gets paired with..... you get low br puma's :sharonsmile:

I think this is only partially true. I think the balance team had a tendency to ignore speed as a factor when giving vehicles BRs and ranks. They only seem to take gun and armor into the account, plus if the tank has any special things, such as IR or stabilizer.

Examples of non-german tanks, which should be higher BR but aren't;
- SARC with 6 pounder
- USSR YaG truck with the 76mm
- BT series tanks
- M22 Locust (should be 2.3 or 2.7 even)

I would definitely buy the 75mm Sdkfz if it were rank III. It belongs higher for sure, imho 3.7 and the "German R3" which is the Sdkfz. 234/1 should be 4.0 as well.

While the sdkfZ 234/1 could be at a higher BR, I fail to see how 4.0 is a good placement, since pzgr 40 got nerfed to 48mm of pen from 64mm, it's also not stabilized and is slower than the R3 at 5.0 with a smaller magazine size as well as less pen

[Graephen]

Originally posted by Velesianus:

Originally posted by Graephen:

They only seem to take gun and armor into the account, plus if the tank has any special things, such as IR or stabilizer

For it's initial dev server reveal, that's correct. However, they then almost always get moved up or down based off of average match performance.

There's a now legendary event in the War Thunder community where a single discord group of highly skilled tryhards took a mediocre aircraft and deliberately forced a large and otherwise completely unwarranted br bump in the next patch by spamming it.

As for other nations, I specifically mentioned puma's as that was the thread topic, but you're correct, there are certainly many vehicles that have lower rating's than they should and for a variety of reasons.

I've meant it as a reply to this part

Originally posted by Velesianus:

Originally posted by Graephen:

This little beast has more pen than a 75mm Sherman

However, they're given favorable br's because Axis teams have traditionally struggled at certain br ranges and since a vehicle's rating is, most often, performance based and thus capable of being effected by the players it gets paired with..... you get low br puma's :sharonsmile:

While it's true German teams tend to be worse, because of how famous their WW2 tanks are, which impacts BRs as well, USSR also tends to have a lot of under BR'd vehicles, same with USA.

[Graephen]

Originally posted by Mirage:

Wheeled vehicle with slow turret traverse really limits how good it is, especially against US.

Doesen't change anything about the fact, that it is still very capable at 4.3 or 5.0
It's the Hellcat effect - you have a great gun on a mobile platform and it has a decent ammount of HE filler, which is why it is popular :)

Originally posted by dan:

Originally posted by Graephen:

I think this is only partially true. I think the balance team had a tendency to ignore speed as a factor when giving vehicles BRs and ranks. They only seem to take gun and armor into the account, plus if the tank has any special things, such as IR or stabilizer.

Examples of non-german tanks, which should be higher BR but aren't;
- SARC with 6 pounder
- USSR YaG truck with the 76mm
- BT series tanks
- M22 Locust (should be 2.3 or 2.7 even)

I would definitely buy the 75mm Sdkfz if it were rank III. It belongs higher for sure, imho 3.7 and the "German R3" which is the Sdkfz. 234/1 should be 4.0 as well.

While the sdkfZ 234/1 could be at a higher BR, I fail to see how 4.0 is a good placement, since pzgr 40 got nerfed to 48mm of pen from 64mm, it's also not stabilized and is slower than the R3 at 5.0 with a smaller magazine size as well as less pen

Ah, forgot about that meaningless change :S
I don't generally play vehicles with the german 20mm anymore, I even prefer the Ostwind to the Wirbelwind. Typical Gaijin though - instead of fixing a few overperforming vehicles, they just nerf a shell to obscurity.

So maybe 3.3 would be a good placement - it's still fast with a decent autocannon.

[HeatedWafflez]

american tanks in general are just far too high in battle rating on average

[Graephen]

Originally posted by Mirage:

Originally posted by Graephen:

Doesen't change anything about the fact, that it is still very capable at 4.3 or 5.0
It's the Hellcat effect - you have a great gun on a mobile platform and it has a decent ammount of HE filler, which is why it is popular :)

Hellcat is also a way better platform than a Puma, for one it's tracked which is generally the far superior option, amazing mobility, fast turret traverse, very powerfull cannon, a .50 on top.

Puma is wheeled paired with slow turret traverse makes it really bad to get on target, can't easily turn around or adjust fire, firepower is only a bit over 100mm APC, vulnerable to .50s and mobility can very hit and miss depending on the map unlike tracked vehicles

If it had double the turret rotation speed to match the M18, and it was tracked AND it had better firepower, sure.

M18 is 5.7, can deal with all heavy tanks on it's BR, is tracked - yes, does have a .50 cal - ok, but
Sdkfz. 234/2 can deal with all heavy tanks on it's BR, it's wheeled, which doesen't really impede it's mobility, which is higher than the M18s. It's BR would be 4.0 - it would meet tanks on 3.0, which it can absolutely slam and tanks on 5.0, which means no Jumboes, no IS-1s, no T-34-85s. It's greatest threats would be KV-85 and Churchills, but they are quite limited in mobility and the M6.

[Der Lachende Mann]

Originally posted by Velesianus:

All of the sonderkraftfahrzeugs have rather generous br's, making them universally a bit op.

Every german military vehicle in WW2 was a Sonderkraftfahrzeug (with the possible exception of prototypes not having a number assigned yet...)

[Graephen]

Originally posted by Tomwyr:

Originally posted by Velesianus:

All of the sonderkraftfahrzeugs have rather generous br's, making them universally a bit op.

Every german military vehicle in WW2 was a Sonderkraftfahrzeug (with the possible exception of prototypes not having a number assigned yet...)

He's probably meant all the Spähwagens

[shipdesignerdude]

It sounds like OP just universally either hates or loves all the fast reserve tanks.... you cannot be serious in saying the BT-7A should go to rank 3, or that the SARC is any good.

You either get killed by way too many or you just want to justify killing lower BR players by making the vehicles Rank 3 so you can grind events. Complete Joke.