Does someone want to explain WHY the ZSU-37 is BR 4.7?

[Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats]

The thing is OP as ♥♥♥♥.
A BR of 4.7 and a fast firing 37mm gun, it's got a low profile (so low infact I was once killed by an invisible one that was 10 metres away and the game thinks I wouldn't have been able to see it!)
But it's not that, that's the problem. Ohhh no it's the ammo it can carry.
Ammo in question; BR-167P. At 100m it can pen 95mm of armour. NINTY FIVE. At 500m it can pen 80.
What kind of tanks will it face? BR's of 3.7 - 5.7 it can easily frontally pen quite a few vehicles from 100-500m away. (i.e. most British tanks, and German Panzer IV's)
Now lets compare it to other AA guns of other nations.
British; Crusader AA Mk.1 BR 5.0 with a 40mm SLOWER firing gun. Maximum pen 74mm at 100m.
Germany; Ostwind BR 4.7 with a 37mm faster firing gun. Maximum pen 64mm at 100m.
America; M19 BR 5.0 with twin 40mm SLOWER firing guns. Maximum pen is 74mm at 100m.

Makes sense right? Makes perfect sense to give an AA gun such great tank killing abilities.
So how do you fix this? Simple; remove the BR-167P ammo and it's highest pen goes down to 57mm at 100m. Which is more in-line with other nations AA guns.

[Foggy]

amen

[MoonPrune]

Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats の投稿を引用：

So how do you fix this? Simple; remove the BR-167P ammo and it's highest pen goes down to 57mm at 100m. Which is more in-line with other nations AA guns.

OR, raise the BR to 5.7 so it's BR is closer to the kugleblitz which has similar pen.

[Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats]

MoonPrune の投稿を引用：

Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats の投稿を引用：

So how do you fix this? Simple; remove the BR-167P ammo and it's highest pen goes down to 57mm at 100m. Which is more in-line with other nations AA guns.

OR, raise the BR to 5.7 so it's BR is closer to the kugleblitz which has similar pen.

Yup precisely. It's genuine madness. The amount of times I have been slaughtered helplessly by one of these things at range is unbelievable. And the amount of times I've seen people get slaughtered by them too.

[kiro the avenger!]

pattern is repeated again with the ZSU-57-2
the best part is the ZSU-37 appears in the sim battle with PzIVs being basically all the germans get. they annilate

i personally dont think any SPAA should get AP rounds
theyre called spAA for a reason. sure let let them kill other SPAA or even lightly armoured tanks
but when theyre a serious threat to a heavy tank, somethings wrong

ZSUs have to be the worst offender
not only do i often see thems ignoring the air
i often see them ignoring the air after ive just strafed them

[MADX0]

kiro the avenger! の投稿を引用：

pattern is repeated again with the ZSU-57-2
the best part is the ZSU-37 appears in the sim battle with PzIVs being basically all the germans get. they annilate

i personally dont think any SPAA should get AP rounds
theyre called spAA for a reason. sure let let them kill other SPAA or even lightly armoured tanks
but when theyre a serious threat to a heavy tank, somethings wrong

ZSUs have to be the worst offender
not only do i often see thems ignoring the air
i often see them ignoring the air after ive just strafed them

How should I put it? I played Germany ignoring SPAA then I researched them for making easier to unlock tiers... now I love them, even the weak Leopard, with the Sd.Kfz. 6/2 I ruled the sky, no plane would dare to fly nearby, the Wirbelwind was a bit better for air n lots better for ground, then the oh so waitend Ostwind came to me I it socked me, I was almost unable to shot down anything, but when it camed to ground units, holy merde... get out of my way, we SPAA (one Sd.Kfz. 6/2, one Wirbelwind and my Ostwind) defended the zone (in SB) while the tanks focused on capturing the enemies zone, nothing went indside our zone, we repeled everything, 10+ light and medium tanks... no wonder why they focus on ground targets, Ive also got killed by tanks while trying to shot down a plane (you're telling everyone near, where you are and what you are doing), so yes, the Ostwind was the end of antiaircrating for me, the M19 aint as good as I tought it would... got half of russian SPAA to research coz I played them first befero the addition of the new ones, so I only have the ZSU-37 and the 72-K GAZ MM (over a year)... and I dont remember souch pen and br... there was no point on using them...

[MoonPrune]

The thing about SPAA is that if you have high enough pen and a good angle to shoot an enemy at, it's very forgiving as your where you shots hit, and the damage done in a certain space of time is going to be very high. It's not like in a light tank on the flank, for example, where if you mess up your flanking shot they have time to recover. In an SPAA, if one of your shots misses, or it ricochets, who cares? You've got a steady stream of shots so you can easily strafe the enemy vehicle until it blows up or everything is dead, which is what makes them effective tank killers.

In real life, if you fired an APHE shell from a Sherman at a ZSU-37, it would go down in that first shot because no ZSU crew is suicidal enough to risk their lives driving up and and getting flanking shots into a Shermans side, when they've already just taken a round and the crew is in a state of shock because of it.

[Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats]

kiro the avenger! の投稿を引用：

pattern is repeated again with the ZSU-57-2
the best part is the ZSU-37 appears in the sim battle with PzIVs being basically all the germans get. they annilate

i personally dont think any SPAA should get AP rounds
theyre called spAA for a reason. sure let let them kill other SPAA or even lightly armoured tanks
but when theyre a serious threat to a heavy tank, somethings wrong

ZSUs have to be the worst offender
not only do i often see thems ignoring the air
i often see them ignoring the air after ive just strafed them

I partially agree.
While a SPAAG is primarily meant for taking down planes, it should still have some sort of ability to defend it's self against armoured targets. Just not to the degree that the ZSU's have.
It's madness. And not be able to take on a lot of tanks frontally and win.

MoonPrune の投稿を引用：

The thing about SPAA is that if you have high enough pen and a good angle to shoot an enemy at, it's very forgiving as your where you shots hit, and the damage done in a certain space of time is going to be very high. It's not like in a light tank on the flank, for example, where if you mess up your flanking shot they have time to recover. In an SPAA, if one of your shots misses, or it ricochets, who cares? You've got a steady stream of shots so you can easily strafe the enemy vehicle until it blows up or everything is dead, which is what makes them effective tank killers.

In real life, if you fired an APHE shell from a Sherman at a ZSU-37, it would go down in that first shot because no ZSU crew is suicidal enough to risk their lives driving up and and getting flanking shots into a Shermans side, when they've already just taken a round and the crew is in a state of shock because of it.

Yeah exactly, why risk getting RNGesus'd in your light tank when you can just flank and spank HARD and constantly with an SPAAG? Why fire one shell, and need to fire several more to get a kill, when you can spam 15 shells in an instant and kill him quicker.

And that's part of the problem with War Thunder, if a tank got hit in real life the entire crew would be dazed and basically nope the ♥♥♥♥ out of their tank. Especially the crew of a SPAAG, if they even saw an enemy tank coming towards them they probably would've bailed

[Blitzkrieg Wulf]

While I see the argument presented (<- Important... Yes, I understand where you're coming from.), I've killed them with the .50 HMG on top of my tank many times.

I feel that players who excersize the use of good cover and patience -typically- do not run into this problem, as they will be watching for anything that moves, and, at this point, the ZSU might as well be any unarmored tank of your choice; to kill one, just light them up with a HMG.

That being said, I would like to see it up a bit more, 5.3-5.7..

MoonPrune の投稿を引用：

In real life, if you fired an APHE shell from a Sherman at a ZSU-37, it would go down in that first shot because no ZSU crew is suicidal enough to risk their lives driving up and and getting flanking shots into a Shermans side, when they've already just taken a round and the crew is in a state of shock because of it.

"In real life".... heh... hah... yeah. people complained about being forced out of their tank without having two or more crew members. Now they complain that they have to fight with one crew member (When, if it was -really- that painful, they could just hold "J" and bail out..)... Imagine how they'd take it if their tank has 5 crew members, a panther shoots an M46 in the hull... Driver gets his arm taken off at the elbow, and all of a sudden, all of the crew members decide to bail out because they're scared?

The amount of complaining would be astronomical, besides, how would the game calculate the crew members mood, from what I would presume to be "High Morale" to "skid marks"? People would complain about getting "RNG'd" more than they already do...?

Cause I swear, if the shell didn't penetrate and kill, then the meter would be far to the right, and your crew would bail out leaving your tank "dead" anyways.

[Coelian]

implying russians went with the "Big guns" motto, no wonder why most russian tanks at rank 5 have huge guns. SPAA included, just that they have no armor whatsoever.

[Katokevin]

Blitzkrieg Wulf の投稿を引用：

"In real life".... heh... hah... yeah. people complained about being forced out of their tank without having two or more crew members. Now they complain that they have to fight with one crew member (When, if it was -really- that painful, they could just hold "J" and bail out..)... Imagine how they'd take it if their tank has 5 crew members, a panther shoots an M46 in the hull... Driver gets his arm taken off at the elbow, and all of a sudden, all of the crew members decide to bail out because they're scared?

The amount of complaining would be astronomical, besides, how would the game calculate the crew members mood, from what I would presume to be "High Morale" to "skid marks"? People would complain about getting "RNG'd" more than they already do...?

Cause I swear, if the shell didn't penetrate and kill, then the meter would be far to the right, and your crew would bail out leaving your tank "dead" anyways.

I think most people saw that the LMS feature would save them from 1 shot kills (and it can and sometimes does) but now that they have to spend an extra shell or two (if they know where the last man is), they can't stand it. I can somewhat agree. It's been a lot harder in my Conqueror because of it (often leaves 1 man in a T-54 alive and the 17 second reload is enough for him to switch to the driver and leave). Personally, I think tanks with either 2 or 3 crew members should only have it (such as a Flakpanzer I or most Tier I tanks).

(Not saying any type of system should be added) A system similar to the RO series for the crews mood would kind of work. Morale drops as shells land close by, bounce off, or penetrate. If it is at its lowest and a shell penetrates, out the crew goes from fear. A single dead crew member (or heavily injured) would be a reason to bail as most can't function with 1-2 crew members lost. But like you said, this would just make people complain even more.

[Blitzkrieg Wulf]

Шогк наяdег Комгдdе☭ の投稿を引用：

I think most people saw that the LMS feature would save them from 1 shot kills (and it can and sometimes does) but now that they have to spend an extra shell or two (if they know where the last man is), they can't stand it. I can somewhat agree. It's been a lot harder in my Conqueror because of it (often leaves 1 man in a T-54 alive and the 17 second reload is enough for him to switch to the driver and leave).

No, I've seen people come by and complain about being left on one crew member, and how they like the old system better. Seems like they've forgotten about "J" on their keyboard...



The frustrating part is, as you said, having to guess where the "last man" is in the tank, particularly with tanks that have long reloads.

[Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats]

Blitzkrieg Wulf の投稿を引用：

While I see the argument presented (<- Important... Yes, I understand where you're coming from.), I've killed them with the .50 HMG on top of my tank many times.

I feel that players who excersize the use of good cover and patience -typically- do not run into this problem, as they will be watching for anything that moves, and, at this point, the ZSU might as well be any unarmored tank of your choice; to kill one, just light them up with a HMG.

That being said, I would like to see it up a bit more, 5.3-5.7..

Yeah it's more about parity of esteem. It lierally makes no sense as to why this thing has such a low BR compared to the nations SPAAG and their stats. It seriously needs chaning. Either remove this mad pen ammo or up it's BR. Easy peasy fix.

Blitzkrieg Wulf の投稿を引用：

The frustrating part is, as you said, having to guess where the "last man" is in the tank, particularly with tanks that have long reloads.

Haha yes it's quite funny watching a guy pen me over and over and over because I can switch places faster than he could reload, only for a team mate to come and save me by killing him.

Personally I kinda like the last man standing. Despite it being unrealistic. I think it's good for SPAAG. Couple of times I've been spawn invaded, left on one guy and just lone wolf defended the skies above.

[Foxtrot39]

At least SPAAG(hetties) when in LMS really focus their intended jobs as they have 0 chance to win any ground fights

[Striker]

ZSU-37 can be owned by any of the other nations equal BR (or even lower) AA unit if it's spotted first. It can also be destroyed with MG.
It's quite slow.
Upping its BR to the lvl of kugelblitz? You wut mate? They are uncompareable.

It's really hard to hit air targets with it especially in Realistic. And cosidering they have done something to it's AA ammo in the recent patch (really, I started getting normal planes eating up to 3 of my 37mm AA shells and flying away with little damage thinking them to be so pro bomb sluts) it is gone from meh AA to bad AA.

With it's ground shells it can probably be upped to 5.3-5.7, but still it's rather meh AA.

If they'll nerf it like they did with IS-2 ammo. Pfffffff.

[Sir Stefan Lord of Kitty Cats]

Striker の投稿を引用：

ZSU-37 can be owned by any of the other nations equal BR (or even lower) AA unit if it's spotted first. It can also be destroyed with MG.
It's quite slow.
Upping its BR to the lvl of kugelblitz? You wut mate? They are uncompareable.

It's really hard to hit air targets with it especially in Realistic. And cosidering they have done something to it's AA ammo in the recent patch (really, I started getting normal planes eating up to 3 of my 37mm AA shells and flying away with little damage thinking them to be so pro bomb sluts) it is gone from meh AA to bad AA.

With it's ground shells it can probably be upped to 5.3-5.7, but still it's rather meh AA.

If they'll nerf it like they did with IS-2 ammo. Pfffffff. :cfacepalm:

1) it doesn't matter how easy it is to kill, it's still OP as at taking on ground units.
2) We was comparing it to the kugel blitz, as they have a similar pen value. (though the ZSU actually has more!)
3) It's hard to hit air targets with the British 40mm Bofors too. Just the nature of the guns.
4) I've noticed something like that too, I've seen hits on planes, but it's just done no damage.
5) But again, it doesn't matter if it's a meh AA gun, it's a considerable tank killer at it's BR and that's part of the problem, other part of the problem it's just simply not in-line with the other nations SPAAG's BR's. So some could dare say, Russian bias.
6) They nerf'd the IS-2 ammo? Since when?!