Why is the panther F 5.7 but G 6.0

[NPC]

They just moved panther F to 5.7 but kept G 6.0 why? arent they virtually identical if anything the F might be slightly better as far as i can tell

[Ouroboros]

Gaijin balances vehicles by player performance, not by the actual stats. Which probably explains this, though knowing Germany, it will be moving down to 5.7 eventually.

It also explains why Panthers are at the same BR as a T-34-85 and an M4A3, despite being objectively better in nearly every way.

[NPC]

Escrito originalmente por Gang weed:

Gaijin balances vehicles by player performance, not by the actual stats. Which probably explains this, though knowing Germany, it will be moving down to 5.7 eventually.

It also explains why Panthers are at the same BR as a T-34-85 and an M4A3, despite being objectively better in nearly every way.

I dunno I feel like both the T-34 and shermans are good tanks too

[NPC]

so basically if we all play an Abrams tank and die a bunch we can get it moved down to BR 2.5

[OcGuy]

when the

M4A3 is as equivalent as Panther F

[Stridswombat]

Escrito originalmente por Mirage:

Escrito originalmente por Stridswombat:

Panther A that is essentially a better Mk 1 Centurion

How

Higher top speed (55km/h to 37), better hp/t by a sizable margin, 2mm more penetration, higher shell velocity AND APHE post-pen with its APCBC, 5 crew instead of 4 so it doesn't get killed through the turret, smaller and trollier front turret that's overall much better protected than the Centurions, no ready rack so no reload penalty after the first 8 shots and no ammo stuck in the turret. Oh and much better turret traverse aswell by about 5 degrees.

Unless all of that doesn't do it for you.

The Centurion actually plays like a heavy with its mobility. The Panther is effectively faster than the medium tanks it fights... It has better penetration than them, it has better mobility than them, it has better armour than them. The Centurion only gets 2/3 and still has worse firepower overall with its APCBC and is more likely to get oneshoted between the lower crew count and having ammo stuck in the turret.

Yet with all of these disadvantages the Panthers keeps going down, but they move the Centurion up... The only explanation is someone other than braindead players is playing the Centurion, because there's statistically no other reason for it.

[MADX0]

The Panther F is the worst of them all... why?
The flat turret (face) that anything can pierce, same as the Panther II that compensates with an 88... I just spaded the F and throwed it away, havent used it in years.

[Ouroboros]

Escrito originalmente por ÚwÚ:

Escrito originalmente por Gang weed:

Gaijin balances vehicles by player performance, not by the actual stats. Which probably explains this, though knowing Germany, it will be moving down to 5.7 eventually.

It also explains why Panthers are at the same BR as a T-34-85 and an M4A3, despite being objectively better in nearly every way.

I dunno I feel like both the T-34 and shermans are good tanks too

They're good, but both inferior to the Panthers

[NPC]

Escrito originalmente por Gang weed:

Escrito originalmente por ÚwÚ:

I dunno I feel like both the T-34 and shermans are good tanks too

They're good, but both inferior to the Panthers

I feel like they are both good and both have weak points. Panthers turrents are pretty weak

[Ouroboros]

Escrito originalmente por ÚwÚ:

Escrito originalmente por Gang weed:

They're good, but both inferior to the Panthers

I feel like they are both good and both have weak points. Panthers turrents are pretty weak

The Panthers' turret is actually pretty trolly after volumetric shells were introduced, only certain parts of it can really be classified as 'weak' now (this also applies even less to the Panther F, which can also now be found at 5.7), and if you penetrate the turret of, say, a T-34-85, the tank is almost always a one-shot. However, with the Panther, it often does survive a penetrating hit to the turret.

As for the rest of the armour, i.e. UFP, it's not even a contest, nor is it for the gun itself. The Panther can OHK most things that it faces at or below its BR almost anywhere, whereas in return, you're expected to have to shoot at the Panther's weakspots. That doesn't seem fair.

[uɐɐılʎʇs]

BR compression and player stats leads to a lot of tanks at weird BRs. But to be honest, every panther could be 6.0 and still do pretty much as good as they do now.

[Stridswombat]

Escrito originalmente por ÚwÚ:

I feel like they are both good and both have weak points. Panthers turrents are pretty weak

It really isn't because there's only a few pixels you need to hit to actually hit 94mm of armour (which is still on par with what other tanks get). Anything else you either hit overlapping armour of which it has 3 (turret front, mantlet, internal mantlet), the angles at the top and bottom of the mantlet or volumetric armour making it thicker than it says it is.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2376878919

Look at this. That's the armour plate that runs through the entire inside of the mantlet. So you need to either hit that tiny spot around the optics or you have to penetrate 94mm of armour + that + whatever angle you hit + possibly also the turret front if you hit too close to the edges. End result is the US 76mm guns can barely pen it outside of that 1 tiny spot on it. It's incredibly well protected compared to everything else.

The upper hull is just immune to 99% it fights at or below its BR. Even 17-pounder APCBC can't pen it at all. You basically need the ARL's 215mm pen to pen it and even then it's not a guarantee.

[Stridswombat]

Basically this is the Panthers turret: https://i.imgur.com/A7mlcKU.jpg

Hit any of that overlapping armour, you're probably going to bounce because most tanks it fights doesn't have the penetration to go through it. Calling that weak is daft. That's untop of an effectively unpennable front hull.

[kamikazi21358]

Escrito originalmente por Mirage:

Escrito originalmente por Stridswombat:

Higher top speed (55km/h to 37)

Top speed of the Centurion is 37
Top speed of the Panther A is 37.. maybe 38

The Tigers have a top speed of 42, but 37-38 would be the practical speed they reach. The Panther has a top speed of 55, which it can reach on downhill. In practice on flat ground, it’s in the 40s. It’s HP/t is also the exact same as the T-34-85, with wider tracks, so it does get the acceleration to. The centurion is simply slower, both listed top speed, in-practice top speed, and general maneuverability; only disadvantage I believe is reverse (I think centurion is faster than Challenger and comet), which is literally like the only disadvantage the Panther A actually has at 5.7, literally just it’s reverse speed, and perhaps it’s just slightly longer than average reload.

Escrito originalmente por Mirage:

If you conveniently 'forget' that the Centurion Mk 1 has APDS that puts it at 228mm of pen, so that's an extra 36mm of pen, rather than 2 less.

Which you conveniently ‘forgot’ that the Panther A also has APCR, which has the exact same penetration. Full caliber ammunition was being compared. If considering secondary ammunition, then Centurion does have better ammunition, but it still just tickles 1-2 people if you’re lucky, not exactly a fair comparison to a shell that is significantly heavier and explodes unrealistically upon penetration. Which even comparing secondary ammunition, APDS is better, but APCR still has the same penetration, so it does have practically the same function against flat armor. *If you need it, since APHECBC still penetrates almost everything.

Escrito originalmente por Mirage:

Similar to the Panther's mobility

It plays more like a Russian heavy than a medium tank, it’s not slow but it isn’t a true medium tank in speed. Forgetting that the Panther A is the same BR as the Sherman for some ****ing reason, the Centurion is probably if not the slowest medium tank at 5.7, statistically and practically. Even the Panther F, a tank that used to be 6.3 at one point , still is similar, if not slightly better, even though it still has a higher top speed, is as heavy without additional armor compared to the A with, and has a hundred less HP to go with it.

Escrito originalmente por Mirage:

Maybe people actually play these tanks instead of comparing statcards that leads them to believe Panthers actually reach 55 km/h somehow.

Yes, but they’re still a good indicator. Like how the centurion top speed is in the 30s, so it really doesn’t exceed it, while a Panther A is 55, so while it doesn’t reach 55 practically, it still gives the indication that it is faster. So it makes sense to me that an expert crew Panther A can reach 42-46 km/h, about 39 km/h if you’re on soft terrain on a slight incline.
It’s faster up hill on a field than the Centurion is on flat concrete.

[ALMIRANTE]

Asd

[Stridswombat]

Panther/Centurion

Penetration APCBC: 192mm>190mm
Shell velocity: 935m/s>883m/s
Penetration APCR/APDS: 228<228
Reload: 7.6s (with ready rack)>9.6s (without ready rack)
Top speed: 55km/h>37km/h
Reverse speed: 4km/h<12km/h
Hp/t: 15.45>13.53 (with add-on)
Weight: 45.4t>46.9t (with add-on)
Engine power: 700hp>635hp
Turret traverse: 16.8°>12.6°
Crew: 5>4

And as mentioned the Panther then gets add-on armour, volumetric armour on the front turret and doesn't have to deal with a ready rack which both debuffs reload when empty and forces ammo perpetually into the turret. Which is extra nice when you have lower damage solid shot and will need multiple shots to kill most targets. It also has overall stronger, smaller and more trolly turret front while both have about front hull.

I do play them for the record. But no amount of playing them makes these equal. The Centurion wasn't even as good at 5.7 and that just makes it even more insulting how the Panthers keep going down but they move the Centurions and Churchills up. The Panther D is equal to the Centurion, the A is not. They should be in reverse positions.