SPAA vs planes. A unfair battle?

[HungryHunter]

I am the only onethinking there is a problem with Planes onehitting tanks while SPAA needs endless shots to even get close to a hit?

Planes can use it speed and the third dimension to hide and evade
while
the SPAA is slow and most the time locked to one place.
It also dont help that SPAA have to fear other tanks ontop of the sky.

A Bomb or a rocked exploding in the same postcode kills SPAA
but
the SPAA need a direct hit on a far away fastmoving agile small target
Yeah a plane goes often down in one hit but its often (for me) just a lucky hit on a plane that isnt evading at all (becouse most the time they think there will no SPAA able to hit them in the first place)

We also have the problem of Planes are often the only real plane killers and SPAA are just kills waiting to be claimed.
When we now consider spawn camping/killing and the "rich get richer" spawnpoint problem i ask: why are they planes in tank battle in the first place?
Why is there no true combined arms mode where dedicated planes players support there player tanks.
Why did it feel so cheap beeing stuck in a gamemode that offers one play style all the rewarts while others have to fear beeing out of the game at any moment (even if they on the move trying to even reach the frontline (not just campers))

[shadain597]

Everyone: SPAAs have a steep learning curve, much worse than than CAS.
Legion: SPAAs aren't bad, it's a L2P issue.
Everyone: What did we just say?

[Legion]

Originally posted by shadain597:

Everyone: SPAAs have a steep learning curve, much worse than than CAS.
Legion: SPAAs aren't bad, it's a L2P issue.
Everyone: What did we just say?

I didn't realise not firing at a aircraft when its multiple km out and leading the target is a steep learning curve, its just common sense ffs....

Then again this is War Thunder and common sense isn't most players strong point..

[shadain597]

Originally posted by Legion:

Originally posted by shadain597:

Everyone: SPAAs have a steep learning curve, much worse than than CAS.
Legion: SPAAs aren't bad, it's a L2P issue.
Everyone: What did we just say?

I didn't realise not firing at a aircraft when its multiple km out and leading the target is a steep learning curve, its just common sense ffs....

Then again this is War Thunder and common sense isn't most players strong point..

Ah, yes, we're all supposed to magically know how much to lead a target moving in 3 dimensions, at hundreds of km/hour, at an unknown distance away, using guns that change in velocity, rate of fire, and drop rate every SPAA change, and with practically no feedback/indications on adjusting aim. Here's a short summary of how that goes:
*miss*
*miss*
*miss*
*reloading*
*get killed by something without earning any points/SL*
Knowing what you do about the average Ground Battle player, exactly how many do you think are going to master each individual SPAA they have? Unlike SPAAs, CAS can start getting fairly consistent bomb kills within the first few tries, especially once you have bombs that are 250kg or larger.

Oh, and before you go on about "just watch the tracers, it's sooooo easy" I already pointed out that it's hard as hell to determine where those tracers actually are in relation to the target, for some of us that aren't using a giant TV screen to play on. Again, it's not that SPAAs are impossible to use or bad, it's that the learning curve sucks, has little in the way of feedback or rewards before you've got it down, and is far harder to learn than CAS. Plus, it's damn hard to be in a position to effectively shoot at planes without also being in a position to get shot by half of the enemy team, in part because teammates are usually terrible players that can't be bothered to shoot at tanks right in front of them.

[Ponto]

Originally posted by hsf_:

Originally posted by Ponto:

Another L2P issue. They are endless.

I must be right if you say it is then.

Very astute of you to say so.

[Legion]

Originally posted by shadain597:

Ah, yes, we're all supposed to magically know how much to lead a target moving in 3 dimensions, at hundreds of km/hour, at an unknown distance away, using guns that change in velocity, rate of fire, and drop rate every SPAA change, and with practically no feedback/indications on adjusting aim.
.

Missed the point so here we go again...

If a player is incapable of telling that a plane is OBVIOUSLY too far away to hit them I'm sorry but the player needs their eyes checking...just open your eyes and look at it ffs! Then you have the issue of players NOT LEADING THE TARGET and firing DIRECTLY AT the plane (no matter the distance) so all shots will OBVIOUSLY miss unless the plane is practically above you/diving at you.

Here are some hints as its obvious SPAA play is to 'HaRd' for most. You will soon earn that 'Anti-air' title...hopefully lmao.

Baiting aircraft > If a plane is in the air fire a burst or 2 towards it to to try and bait it into attacking you. The light it up when it dives on you.

Play dumb> Deliberately miss/aim behind the plane to make them think you don't know wtf you are doing (not hard for some I'll admit) and light him up as they dive for a 'easy' kill.

Free cam tracking> Give a plane a few burst to get their attention, keep tracking via free camera and move location so they think you have given up on them. If they take the bait, stop and light them up.

Wiggle fire> When firing at a plane give your aiming cursor a little wiggle up and down/in a little circle to make the rounds spread out. So instead of a 'stream' of fire you put up a 'wall' of lead Think of how a modern Phalanx CIWS works, area denial over precision.

Get out of the spawn> Staying at the spawn point makes you a easy spot and target. Where as pushing out the spawn and being near teammates means you are much more likely to kill aircraft killing your teammates. I know to not fly over spawns as I'd bne a easy SPAA kill where as in the middle of the battlefield it's usually 'safer'.

TL:DR. Engage your grey matter, don't fire at aircraft that are obviously miles away and lead your targets!!

[Casino Knight]

You are very right in saying the CAS is disproportionately easier to play than SPAA, and far more rewarding at the same time. I play SPAA extremely often, however the only way to reliably get kills is for the enemy pilots to be incredibly bad or to ambush on an attack run. Good news is that most pilots ground raping are extremely bad, and most likely would get ruined if they tried to play air game modes.
Whenever I play air in ground RB (not even CAS, just fighters), SPAA are free kills for the most part. With how effective HE is now, and how vulnerable SPAA are in general they don't stand a chance if you play remotely smartly.
As it stands unfortunately air is by far the most effective counter to air. It's ♥♥♥♥ but the CAStards are incredibly easy kills since most of them are garbage and can't dogfight to save their lives. Pick an air supremacy fighter of your choice and have fun ruining their easy win option.
Bonus: You'll find most CAStards won't admit to it being an easymode and they'll claim it's oh so skilful and difficult. They're full of it, their egos just can't take the truth. You can see quite a few of them in this thread too just from the way they respond.

[-reno-FR-]

Originally posted by HungryHunter:

I am the only onethinking there is a problem with Planes onehitting tanks while SPAA needs endless shots to even get close to a hit?

Planes can use it speed and the third dimension to hide and evade
while
the SPAA is slow and most the time locked to one place.
It also dont help that SPAA have to fear other tanks ontop of the sky.

A Bomb or a rocked exploding in the same postcode kills SPAA
but
the SPAA need a direct hit on a far away fastmoving agile small target
Yeah a plane goes often down in one hit but its often (for me) just a lucky hit on a plane that isnt evading at all (becouse most the time they think there will no SPAA able to hit them in the first place)

We also have the problem of Planes are often the only real plane killers and SPAA are just kills waiting to be claimed.
When we now consider spawn camping/killing and the "rich get richer" spawnpoint problem i ask: why are they planes in tank battle in the first place?
Why is there no true combined arms mode where dedicated planes players support there player tanks.
Why did it feel so cheap beeing stuck in a gamemode that offers one play style all the rewarts while others have to fear beeing out of the game at any moment (even if they on the move trying to even reach the frontline (not just campers))

1- SPAA doesn't have to stick to a single spot. It's up to you to go near a cover spot, ready to hide if situation is getting worst.

2- SPAA does NOT have to fear tanks : if you fear tanks, that is meaning you are too close to the front line ---> SPAA HAS NOTHING TO DO IN THE FRONT LINE, SO STAY BEHIND, FAR FAR BEHIND.
And if staying behind you get killed by an ennemy who has successfully flanked your team, then it's a team issue.

3- SPAA doesn't need one direct hit to kill a plane : if you have explosive ammunitions, they will explode & create schrapnells perforing plane even at close range & not direct-direct hit.

4- The principe of SPAA is also creating a "forbidden area" for planes : that's why you drop a rain of bullets. The purpose is breaking the pathway the pilot can have to bomb an allied tank or position.
And of course, the high difficulty is in 2 things : a)- you must anticipate the movement of the plane ; b)- you must deal with your SPAA caracteristics (fire rate, number of ammu before reloading, rotation speed of the turret).

Is it hard SPAA ? YES.

Is it impossible ? NO.

A lot of people will never use SPAA because :

- there are some slackers (usually, those are who cry about planes, remove CAS, etc)

- there are some who just don't manage to deal those difficulties : aiming a plane in all the plans (X, Y, Z), but well, they tried & SPAA are definitively not for them & they surely will do better on others roles.

- there are who just prefer others roles, just as simply as that.

Personnally, I LOVE SPAA & play a lot. Usually I have between one or two of them in a line up, because of the high complementarity it brings to the team.
And very often it saves the team.

Oh, one last tip about playing SPAA : attract ennemies planes.
When you begin to fire to an ennemy plane, very often you will attract him.
So, just not burst fire : just do some "tak tak tak" & wait.
When the guy will go for you, very often he will fly in a direct line & dive for you : he is dead.
Well, if you face a more experimented plane player (the one who usually plays Air Battles), it will be harder. IF he has some bombs, you should also anticipate that factor (like having a protective spot like a rock).

[Casino Knight]

Originally posted by -reno-FR-:

[quote=HungryHunter
Oh, one last tip about playing SPAA : attract ennemies planes.
When you begin to fire to an ennemy plane, very often you will attract him.
So, just not burst fire : just do some "tak tak tak" & wait.
When the guy will go for you, very often he will fly in a direct line & dive for you : he is dead.

This is actually terrible advice, anyone that plays SPAA seriously would never even suggest this. Cannon CAS will destroy you if you do this and they can aim even slightly, normal CAS with bombs will likely still kill you even if you kill them since they can release after death.
This is a great way to get killed prematurely, I can only imagine this is a false flag by a CAS player to try and get people playing SPAA to make themselves massive targets and even easier to kill.

For anyone looking for genuine advice, do the opposite of this. The deadliest SPAA is the one the enemy don't know exists. They will fly low and slow and make themselves incredibly easy targets if they feel they are safe, wait until they commit to a strafing run on a target and get nice and low then they are screwed. You will live substantially longer than if you followed this other guys advice and will most likely get more kills or at least send them back to base for repairs.

Do not be like half the morons I see playing SPAA spraying 50. or 20mm with self destroying ammo at an aircraft 5-6k away with 2-3k alt. All you're doing is signing your own death warrant except for the absolute worst players which would probably crash themselves without your help.

[-reno-FR-]

Originally posted by Casino Knight:

This is actually terrible advice, anyone that plays SPAA seriously would never even suggest this. Cannon CAS will destroy you if you do this and they can aim even slightly, normal CAS with bombs will likely still kill you even if you kill them since they can release after death.
This is a great way to get killed prematurely, I can only imagine this is a false flag by a CAS player to try and get people playing SPAA to make themselves massive targets and even easier to kill.

For anyone looking for genuine advice, do the opposite of this. The deadliest SPAA is the one the enemy don't know exists. They will fly low and slow and make themselves incredibly easy targets if they feel they are safe, wait until they commit to a strafing run on a target and get nice and low then they are screwed. You will live substantially longer than if you followed this other guys advice and will most likely get more kills or at least send them back to base for repairs.

Do not be like half the morons I see playing SPAA spraying 50. or 20mm with self destroying ammo at an aircraft 5-6k away with 2-3k alt. All you're doing is signing your own death warrant except for the absolute worst players which would probably crash themselves without your help.

If you read well, i also wrote :

"Well, if you face a more experimented plane player (the one who usually plays Air Battles), it will be harder. IF he has some bombs, you should also anticipate that factor (like having a protective spot like a rock)."

In all cases, you must as SPAA to be ready to be targeted by planes.
Also, you must considere the fact of being targeted by coordinated ennemies planes : one will attract your attention, then the other(s) will kill you while you are focus on the first.

[CH13F]

with amount of exaggerations here, we can build entirely different and new war thunder to ourselves.

[-reno-FR-]

Ah?
That's why I do it good as SPAA....

Usually, planes & helis are dead meat.

If you have difficuties & not understanding how SPAA can work, well, it's your problem, not mine.
Personnally, SPAA are not a problem for me, using them or fighting them.
But your ignorance of the stuff is a problem. Your problem.

OP asked for advices.
Some gave him advices.
He will be able to take them or leave them.

[Casino Knight]

Originally posted by -reno-FR-:

Originally posted by Casino Knight:

This is actually terrible advice, anyone that plays SPAA seriously would never even suggest this. Cannon CAS will destroy you if you do this and they can aim even slightly, normal CAS with bombs will likely still kill you even if you kill them since they can release after death.
This is a great way to get killed prematurely, I can only imagine this is a false flag by a CAS player to try and get people playing SPAA to make themselves massive targets and even easier to kill.

For anyone looking for genuine advice, do the opposite of this. The deadliest SPAA is the one the enemy don't know exists. They will fly low and slow and make themselves incredibly easy targets if they feel they are safe, wait until they commit to a strafing run on a target and get nice and low then they are screwed. You will live substantially longer than if you followed this other guys advice and will most likely get more kills or at least send them back to base for repairs.

Do not be like half the morons I see playing SPAA spraying 50. or 20mm with self destroying ammo at an aircraft 5-6k away with 2-3k alt. All you're doing is signing your own death warrant except for the absolute worst players which would probably crash themselves without your help.

If you read well, i also wrote :

"Well, if you face a more experimented plane player (the one who usually plays Air Battles), it will be harder. IF he has some bombs, you should also anticipate that factor (like having a protective spot like a rock)."

In all cases, you must as SPAA to be ready to be targeted by planes.
Also, you must considere the fact of being targeted by coordinated ennemies planes : one will attract your attention, then the other(s) will kill you while you are focus on the first.

I read what you said perfectly fine, and my response is exactly what I had to say in return to it. Your advice is genuinely terrible and will only work on the most absolute dense of all air users, whom would probably crash into the ground and miss their targets anyway at that point. The absolute worst of the worst that pose no threat to anyone.

I've seen you in other threads vehemently defending CAS in general and pretending that it is perfectly fair vs ground targets, so honestly it doesn't surprise me in the slightest to see you peddling awful information that would hinder SPAA players and help CAS players. You're not fooling anyone.

[Casino Knight]

Originally posted by -reno-FR-:

Ah?
That's why I do it good as SPAA....

Usually, planes & helis are dead meat.

If you have difficuties & not understanding how SPAA can work, well, it's your problem, not mine.
Personnally, SPAA are not a problem for me, using them or fighting them.
But your ignorance of the stuff is a problem. Your problem.

If you think optimal SPAA gameplay is spraying at aircraft outside your effective kill area, and alerting all the enemy air as to your location and allowing them to easily play around you and kill you if they want and consecutively say that people who used SPAA to ambush unaware planes when they've made themselves most vulnerable.
Well I got some news for you, you're not a good SPAA player and I strongly believe you're just fabricating what you say to try and lend your outrageous claims credence. It is very apparent that you are the one that doesn't understand the air vs SPAA dynamic in the game. Stop making a fool out of yourself.

[Legion]

Originally posted by Casino Knight:

Do not be like half the morons I see playing SPAA spraying 50. or 20mm with self destroying ammo at an aircraft 5-6k away with 2-3k alt. All you're doing is signing your own death warrant except for the absolute worst players which would probably crash themselves without your help.

That is a big ask considering it's To hArD' to tell how far away a plane is according to some in here...

[CH13F]

Originally posted by Mirage:

There's always those people in the community that pretend a problem doesn't exist at all when it doesn't exist for them.

what you said as same as saying "i cant manage to use them effectively". a game problem, if its real, should exist for everyone. since this is not any sort of technical problem then its gitgud matter.

i agree with others, spraying 5km away planes is like calling a wolf into your own house. get rdy to get wrecked then. for such distances proximity fuses required and lotta vehicles dont have them. and if you dont have them, you gotta wait it get close a km at least. then your chances are going to be higher.

about distancing, its a gitgud matter again, firstly rangefinder exist for all vehicles.you can use it if you really must know pinpoint exact distance. secondly veteran players dont even use rangefinder, we judge distance by the vehicles size. just like tank to tank combat. its a matter of experience comes with time. practice practice and more practice.